Lasting Damage from Swirls?

[HoneyGold65]

I searched the archives and didn't find anything relating to this exact topic... mainly just how to remove them (which was good... I needed a refresher.)

Anyway, I was curious to know if there is any lasting damage that can come from swirl marks? If you don't remove them, continue to use improper techniques and gather more and more swirls, does it weaken the paint?

We all know they are ugly to look at, but the "average person" probably doesn't notice them. I know I have to point them out to someone and once I do, most people do grimace. But I know I 'm going to have future customers who will ask me: "I didn't notice, so why should I pay you $$ to remove those if no-one else will notice?"

I know I can explain about light refraction and a clear shine, but I also want to be able to explain any potential damage. Thoughts?

[bretfraz]

My reply to someone who says no one notices them is, its not so much they do not notice swirls as it is they notice a paint job that looks terrific. The vast majority of vehicle owners do not fully appreciate the work needed to remove swirls, or why they are bad, but they do appreciate a nice looking car. "Nice looking" = no swirl marks.

Lasting damage from swirls? I don't know but I'd explain that swirls are like tiny scratch marks from sanding. Left unattended they will make the car's surface look like someone has taken sandpaper to it. So again its more of an appearance thing.

A customer that doesn't want swirls removed or filled is probably not a real customer. People who want their cars detailed want them to look good. People that don't care drive their cars thru the gas station car wash a couple times per year. Just point out when quoting a job that all swirls, stains, and oxidation will be removed. They don't need a big technical explanation.

[Lynn]

I'm not into this professionally like some of you, so I don't have customers. (Though I gotta admit I think I'd like to ditch this job o' mine and just do mobile detailing -- no bosses, no problem employees.... Ok. 'Nuf of that. Gotta quit daydreaming.) But ... as a followup to Bretfraz's comment, would it work to talk to them in terms of resale value? As in: a good-looking car probably holds its value better/longer?

[FNG]

You know what they say about job interviews. Appearence is the most likely thing to get you hired. Its hard to tell my friends to let me detail thier car. When they see scratches and swirls, they always think, "Time for a new paint job." I think if the paint finish is nice, it would make a huge difference in the value of the car.

[HoneyGold65]

Well, thanks for all the replies. You all are thinking along the same lines as I was when I thought about this thread... I guess it just comes down to that the people who don't care aren't the ones I want as clients.

Those who do will understand the importance of good paint on a car, whether that be to impress their clients, impress their dates, just to feel good about their car, or understand what good paint can do for resale value.

thanks all!

[Aurora40]

On a counter-note, it isn't as if leaving the swirls in causes some sort of permanent damage. They are just as removable years later as they are when you first scratch the paint. The only reason I say this is that if you were to constantly remove paint to remove swirls, eventually you will have a problem. So if a certain depth of the paint is already swirled, and you know you will be causing some more, it may be better to wait. That way later swirls are in the same paint as the current ones. So then you can eventually knock out all those swirls without taking off a lot of paint.

I don't know if that's clear or not. Let's say you will be getting swirls on two occasions. After the first occasion of swirls, you can either remove them or not. So two scenarios:

#1
-get swirls
-remove swirls and "x" amount of paint depth
-get more swirls
-remove swirls and "x" amount of paint depth

#2
-get swirls
-do nothing or try to hide/fill them
-get more swirls
-remove swirls and "x" amount of paint depth

At the end, both scenarios leave you with a beautiful swirl-free finish. But after one scenario, you've removed half as much paint as in the other scenario.

So if a client routinely causes swirls in their paint, maybe it's better to just remove them every few years, or maybe it's better for them to just wait until they change their swirl-causing habits or until they are ready to sell the car. Then, remove all the swirls and have a beauty. In a sense the swirled layer of paint is serving as protection. It's taking one for the team.

Just a thought...

Personally, I don't think I'd use anything tougher than SFP on my car. There are a few swirls/scratches that are deeper than SFP will remove, but I just try to fill them. I bet something like DACP would get them out, but I don't care. I'd rather leave them in there and keep that paint. It isn't too hard to make them almost invisible (they aren't very deep, but deeper than spiderwebbing), and there aren't too many spots like that.

However, if a car is swirl-city or you can see the swirls even from a distance, maybe it's time to remove them and also educate the owner about how to prevent them. Perhaps they'll appreciate how unsightly swirls are once they see their car without them. I don't think that I would dismiss them as customers, though, just because they don't have the same appearance standards as you. You offer an array of services, and they may only be interested in a subset of those services. It doesn't mean you shouldn't provide to them those services that they are interested in.

[Lynn]

Originally posted by Aurora40

Personally, I don't think I'd use anything tougher than SFP on my car.

SFP? I don't find that in the Acronyms list. Please advise this newbie.
I'm especially interested in this topic; just posted a new thread on Autopia U.

Originally posted by Aurora40
However, if a car is swirl-city ....

I know folks sometimes kid you about your long posts, but as long as you keep coming up with "poetry" like this, I'll keep reading 'bout every word you write.

[FNG]

SFP = Swirl Free Polish aka Meguires #82

[Aurora40]

Originally posted by Lynn
I know folks sometimes kid you about your long posts, but as long as you keep coming up with "poetry" like this, I'll keep reading 'bout every word you write.

Wow! Thanks Lynn!

[Masterfinish]

The proper term for swirls is "micro-marring". Swirls are caused by rotary polishers that were used at either to high a speed, were tilted up so that only one side of the pad was touching the surface, or using a polish with too much abrasive. Swirls do not get worse over time but do the fact that the surface is not smooth, the finish will hold more dirt than if finished without swirls. If you are polishing a vehicle that already has swirls on a clearcoat that you run the risk of damaging what is left of the clear in the process of trying to remove the swirls. Fact is any of us polishing any vehicle run that risk unless we can be sure that the vehicle has never been polished before it was brought to us or the car and paint is new. The reason is that unless you can measure original paint depth with a very acurate digital guage and then can check to see that you do not remove any more than .3 to .4 mils of the clear coat you run the risk of causing permanent damage even though it may not become visible for six months or longer. There is a Ultra Violet (UV) rating when the paint was finished by the factory in order to protect the base/color coat from sun damage. Removing any more than .3 to .4 mil of the clearcoat also will reduce the UV protection causing future damage. Scary ain't it? Using a digital guage, and an infrared digital thermometer to make sure the sureface never exceeded 115 degrees I have learned that only the slightest of scracthes can be safely removed. I am still learning after 31 years and was just certified again at Automotive Internationals training center. Remember less is better, You can leave a small mark and live with it but you cannot put the clear back on with out a great expense.
Good Luck
Tom

[HoneyGold65]

Thanks for the very informative post, Masterfinish.