USED BlackFire, car still looks crappy. Did I do something wrong???

roughrider · 10-10-02, 07:34

Hey guys. I got the blackfire polish and paint protectant. I washed the car with DAWN. I dried it. I put a layer of bf polish on. I followed up with 2 layers of bf paint protectant. They car still looked the same. I hear other people getting a beautiful shine. My car looks the same. Am I doing something wrong? Should I not have washed it with DAWN? What did I do wrong?

Also, on the back of the bf bottle, it says that a nickle size should cover a fender, door, or half of the hood. I used more than a nickle size on my PC and I still couldn't cover half of the hood. I used alot of the product and it barely spread easily. Am I doing it wrong? Should I do it by hand instead of PC? How do you know when you have used enough product or too little? Are you suppose to see haze on all the places you put the product on or mostly where you started? Please give your recommendations on using the products and also what I should correct with my technique. thanks.

Aurora40 · 10-11-02, 07:14

Well, does your paint look crappy, or did it just look the same? If your paint looks like crap, you'll probably need to use a good paint cleaner, and also maybe a clay bar. A protectant isn't going to make crappy paint look good.

The fact that you had to use a lot kind of makes it sound like maybe your paint is severely oxidized so the protectant doesn't spread around. I found that it takes a fair amount of it to cover the car. It's not like Klasse where people use less than an ounce on the entire car. I feel it's more like using a cleaner/wax or Gold Class or something (in the amount you need, not in any other way). However, you don't need a ton of it either. I found the directions were about right on (whereas for products like Klasse SG, the directions are overkill as they recommend using way too much. It says "dime-sized" but just a drop or two will do). You might try spreading it over the part to be buffed with the PC. Before you turn it on, wipe the pad around on the part you are applying the protectant to. That way it will be spread out. Then switch the PC on and apply it. But if your paint is in bad shape, you need to fix that first. Wait until you see it outside, though, before you make a judgement about its look. My car looked a little more reflective in the garage, but not much different. When I took it outside, it looked much better and very metallic.

4DSC · 10-11-02, 09:57

Since you say "My paint still looks crappy." I'm assuming your finish has some moderate or serious flaws, and you were expecting far too much from the BF.

All paint problems must be corrected before you apply a product like this. Blackfire (and pretty much any premium system like that which are popular here) will NOT fix paint in bad shape. The general rule is: Get the paint looking how you want it to look first during prep, then protect it.

paco · 10-11-02, 10:27

You finish will only look as good as the preparation.

Just like a fine piece of wood furniture. If you haven't sanded properly, stained properly, and sealed properly - not even a piece that runs $10,000 will look nice.

The reason so many here have such great looking vehicles is because they spend a large portion of their time making sure the paint/clear is the best shape possible.

If the finish is crap, none of the top products will hide that fact. However, if you have a pinnacle finish, the top products will ultimately make it look that much more brillant.

The final finishing is where great finishes become stellar not where average paint becomes great.

Hope that makes sense.

Paco

blkZ28Conv · 10-11-02, 11:00

What color is the car/truck?
How old and maintained was the finish prior to treating with BF? Garaged or outdoors 24/7?
Have you done a clay pre-test ( plastic baggy)? smooth? rough?
Can you or did you do a SMR spot test to see if paint is recoverable?
Has the clearcoat, if present, failed ( because of the usage amount you stated)?
Pictures?

As everyone has previously stated that prep is the key.

Anything that you use to protect it, be it sealant or carnuaba will only reflect the time and effort spent making the finish as flawless and beautiful as possible.

Remember after the initial prep ( very time comsuming if paint intially in poor shape) a good protectant and washing technique will alleviate this exercise the next time.

roughrider · 10-11-02, 09:19

Ok guys. I am pretty New to detailing. I am trying to learn. I have been reading as much as I can. The car is a green honda accord. The paint has decent scratches and swirl marks. How do I get rid of them? What is the BEST product(s) to use to get rid of scratches and swirl marks??? Also, What is meant by Paint Cleaner? Is is a scratch or swirl remover? Is it different? I think thats where I am messing up. Also, do you guys prefer BFing your car by hand or PC? thanks.

4DSC · 10-11-02, 10:02

Quote:

Originally posted by ejant
Next use your paint cleaner then follow up with a glaze. Then you can put your Blackfire Protectant on.

Will Blackfire even work over a glaze?

I don't know much at all about BF, but if it's just a polymer sealant.... you know what I'm going to say!

Aurora40 · 10-12-02, 06:29

If he uses the Gloss Enhancing Polish, there shouldn't be any problem with a glaze. However, that might be a bit of extra work with little return. Terry recommends Machine Glaze #3 in his ultimate recommendation kit followed by GEP then the Protectant.

RoughRider, a paint cleaner is usually non-abrasive with chemical cleaners. It will remove oxidation and other surface contaminants. Together with a clay bar (after a car washing) this will basically remove any sort of crap from your paint. However, swirls are scratches in the paint. They will not be removed by clay or a paint cleaner. So you need a swirl remover (which can act as a cleaner on paint that isn't too crappy). These have abrasives and remove a thin part of the paint. That is how the swirls disappear. On deeper swirls, they round them over so they are less visible. Removing some of the paint will obviously remove some of the contamination that a cleaner will, but a cleaner usually won't remove any paint (so it's safer for more frequent use). Something like Meguiar's Medallion Premium Paint Cleaner is a good non-abrasive cleaner. Meguiar's Dual-Action Cleaner Polish is a good cleaner and also has abrasives that will remove a lot of swirl marks. It might be a good product for you in this situation. But I don't think it's a product you'd want to use once or twice a year as it is a little bit strong. You can follow the DACP with a swirl remover if you want. But from what I've heard about DACP, it doesn't really leave any haze. So there might not be any point in it. If you do want to do that, you might try Meguiar's Swirl Free Polish or #9 Swirl Remover 2.0. I'm sure there are 3M equivalents, but I dont' know what they are.

When I used Blackfire, I used Swirl Free Polish followed by the BF Gloss Enhancing Polish and then 2 coats of BF Protectant. This worked fine. I didn't wash between steps. You might substitute DACP for Swirl Free, though. I personally wouldn't recommend Dawn, but it's up to you. Keep in mind it is not made for automotive paints at all. Plus, what does it do that car wash doesn't? It removes oils and wax? I think the cleaners you use will make short work of that. So why bother using a product that really isn't great for paint like Dawn?

So I would say the shortest route you might take (I have no idea what your paint is like. I mean, it could be a 1999 Accord or a 1981 Accord) would be:

-Wash
-Clay
-Cleaner and swirl remover product (i.e. Dual-Action Cleaner Polish) repeat until clean and as swirl-free as you want it.
-BF Gloss Enhancing Polish
-BF Protectant (repeat if you want)

And perhaps the most intensive if your paint is really oxidized would be:

-Wash
-Clay
-Cleaner (i.e. Medallion Premium Paint Cleaner) repeat as needed*
-Heavy swirl/scratch remover (i.e. DACP) repeat as needed*
-Light swirl remover (i.e. Swirl Free Polish) repeat as needed
-BF Gloss Enhancing Polish
-BF Protectant (repeat if you want)

The steps with the * could be swapped in position if you want (although I wouldn't). You could also try something in between like a cleaner and DACP but no SFP. Whatever. You need to make some sort of judgement based on how your paint looks. If you want, just do the prep one day. If it isn't prepped how you want it, go buy another step to try. Once it's how you want it, then wash it and use the two BF products. That way you don't buy more than you need.

Oh, I used a Random Orbit Buffer (ROB). I have a Porter Cable 7424. I used it for the SFP, the BF GEP, and the two coats of BF Protectant. I think you'll really be amazed by the BF once you get the paint right.

mrdetailer · 10-12-02, 08:06

Before I got on this site, I followed a recommendation from a friend and used a brush to wash the cars. This summer small scratches from the brush appeared in the clearcoat of my Subaru. Horrors. They had left a haze and scratches that were much less than the perfection I want.

I read the following link from CMA,

http://properautocare.com/refshinkit.html

where Blackfire was used on top of a glaze, but I knew that I had to use a more agressive product to wipe out the scratches. I went out and purchased Meguiar's Dual Action Cleaner Polish from my auto paint supply store on the recommendation of the manager who really knew her stuff. When tried on a different vehicle, Meguiars Fine Cut Cleaner, which recommended using rotary buffers only left scratches that required a swirl remover afterwards. Unsatisfactory results with an orbital. I had some trepidation because Meguiars listed this as a fairly agressive cleaner. Here is their relative scale 1 -- 10

Swirl Remover 2.0 3
Fine Cut Cleaner 5
DACP 6

To say I was anxious about using this product initially was an understatement. I bordered on panic. Then I read the label. Here are some of the descriptions.

For use with a rotary or orbital buffer (yeah!).
Removes light to medium oxidation, stains, swirls and blemishes.
Combines the perfect amount of abrasive cleaner and pure rich polish to provide a deep gloss shine.
Safe BUFFERED cleaning gets out defects without marring the finish.
Paintable (no silicones).
Safe for Clear Coats.

Based on that I figured that it was a medium oxididation and scratch remover, similar to the 3M Cleaner Wax Medium Oxidation Remover that I had so successfully used to remove water spot etching my red Mazda. But that product wasn't durable. So, I sucked it up and got out the Orbital.

The finish was still mirror smooth so I didn't need to use clay.

I had to work in the dusk last Thursday because a storm was predicted and the evening was warm. I applied it like a glaze by running the buffer over a small area until most of the product was removed. It was fast and removed efficiently, leaving very little residue. When I wiped off the DACP it did something I'd never encountered before, it squeaked. I would have washed again to remove excess dust, before putting on the Blackfire, but since darkness was fast approaching I quickly put on a coat of the Gloss Enahancing Polish and Paint protector with the buffer. I was amazed at the small amounts needed on this prepared finish.

By the time I got done it was too dark to get a sun reflection, so I drove it to our local grocery store with super bright flourescent lights. To my surprize, not only did the car have great Blackfire depth, but it had a brilliant finish, and the brush stroke scratches were almost gone. Looks the same in full sun. Better than the P21S I used this summer. And I didn't think that could be beaten for pure reflective shine.

I'll use DACP one more time to get the scratches completely out next spring and then use 3M Perfect-It Foam Polishing Pad Glaze and Swirl Remover twice a year to maintain the shine. (The dark car version is amazing by the way.)

I can't imagine what it will look like when in a couple of weeks (after another coat or two of paint protector) I put on a topcoat of P21S, since CMA recommends a carnauba topper for the ultimate Blackfire shine.

Very pleased with both DACP and Blackfire.

4DSC · 10-12-02, 01:17

Thanks for the mini-review mrdetailer, that really deserved it's own thread I think!

I just got my PC pads and DACP yesterday myself.... now I just have to wait for the country to restock on 7335s.

btw, you and Aurora40 both really went all out on the replies!

mrdetailer · 10-12-02, 10:34

You just happened to get me when I had just tried it.

This afternoon I did my Dad's Taurus and used it again to clean up some type of rubber that was on the side. I used a tar remover go get most of it out, but DACP finished the job nicely.