Is Dawn wash a crock, and a Meguiars product story (long)

Aurora40 · 08-07-02, 06:58

I will attempt to tell my story in a logical way that hopefully will be informative and enjoyable and will help you to shed some light on what I've been experiencing.

In maintaining my car, I first began using Gold Class liquid wax when my car was brand-new from the factory. I eventually purchased Medallion Cleaner, #7, and MPPP to replace the GC. I used the Cleaner to remove some small swirls and followed with #7/MPPP. This is when I first became suspicious that MPPP was removing #7 (as I outlined in another thread, so I won't go into detail). As I became more Autopian, I changed my drying procedure to reduce swirls (blot with chamois followed by wipe with MF). I also began to realize that I probably used way too much #7 back when I applied it, and I wanted to top with #26 for more depth. I decided it was time to start from scratch using my new knowledge. I had probably built up about 3-4 applications of MPPP (don't know if it really layered), with the most recent about 1-2 weeks before I tried to strip it.

So, I was all set. I had just purchased some Dawn blue (not the concentrated, just the regular) soap to use to strip the car. Also, my #26 would be arriving later that day just in time to top my MPPP. So, I washed with Dawn, and I was amazed by how the water still beaded a bit and ran off so easily (MPPP was never an amazing beader, and after the Dawn wash, the beading was still about the same as before). So, I felt the surface with a plastic bag (sandwich bag), and clayed the hood because it felt bumpy with the bag on my hand. It still felt bumpy with the bag, and felt smooth-as-glass without the bag on my hand (just as it did before I clayed). So, I figured the car didn't need to be clayed because it all felt smooth-as-glass. I also figured I didn't understand the plastic bag trick... I dried the car off and then proceded to apply #7. The #7 seemed to help the depth and hide the few light swirls, and of course, the MPPP made it look like it did before the #7. I applied two coats of MPPP and then later in the day I applied one coat of #26. The next day, I Quik Detailed and then applied another coat of #26.

I was quite pleased with the way #26 brought out more depth, but I began to realize I could do better with #7 followed by #26 without the MPPP. I also began to notice that in direct sunlight, there is a hazy look to the paint. I first really noticed it on the hood and thought maybe the engine heat did it. It almost looks like I didn't remove the #7 or something. However, I don't think that's the case as it is everywhere, and I was pretty thorough in buffing it off. I began to wonder if maybe the original MPPP wasn't removed with the Dawn wash, and that putting #7 on top of the existing MPPP caused the haze. The new MPPP should have removed the new #7, but maybe it leaves a little of it.

About two days after I washed the car (and was amazed by the #26 beading), as I noticed the hazing more and more, and I noticed it all over the car, not just on the hood, I decided I just had to try to see what was causing it. So, I CCD'd the hood (as it was very clean, just dusty) and then QD'd it. I then masked the hood off and got out the PC. I applied the Medallion Cleaner because I thought for sure it would remove the layers of protectant. Then I applied some #7, and then sealed it in with #26. Yesterday, I still noticed the haze on the hood, and you could see the last path the buffer followed in the haze (not sure if it's the Cleaner path or the #7 path, though. Actually, I can't rule out that it was the #26 path either). Also, there were quite a few swirls in the paint, and that's the last time I apply something to the paint without washing first. The car had only been outside for a total of about 2 hrs after washing and before CCD/QDing, but lesson learned. Anyway, what really annoyed me is that damn hazing. I know how to fix the swirls, but I don't know how to fix the hazing.

Tomorrow I will be getting some APC+ and I am planning on stripping the car again (or, for the first time...) and trying #7 and #26 all over (I'd only tried this with no MPPP on the hood). I'll also try the cleaner to remove the swirls as it has been pretty successful in the past with my light swirls. I might pick up some #9 when I get the APC+, though, just in case. So, what I wanted to do was ensure that all the protection on the paint is removed completely before I begin. So this morning, I washed with Dawn in hopes it would at least remove the #26 if not the MPPP, and maybe the haze would be gone (at least from the hood). As I washed the car with the Dawn wash (with a little GC wash mixed in) I noticed the water from the suds was pretty flat on the surface. Then I sprayed it off, and the beading was incredible. It was quite obviously still the beading from the #26 as nothing I've ever used beads as much as that does. I used the Dawn in the bucket quite liberally, so that isn't the problem. I think Dawn just doesn't cut it as a de-waxer. On most of the car, the #26 was about 1-2 weeks old, and on the hood it was about 1-2 days old.

What I will try tomorrow is mixing in some APC+ with the Gold Class wash in the proper proportion it recommends for wax stripping, and rewash the car. I will then spot for bug&tar, and then apply some #7 followed by #26. I am really hoping that this will give me the gloss I want, and that it won't leave the hazing I've been experiencing. My current rationalization of the hazing is that the original MPPP wasn't removed, the #7 was applied over it, and then the new coat of MPPP removed it, but not completely. And the MPPP/#7/MPPP sandwich is causing hazing since #7 goes on paint, not on protectant. However, maybe it's the #26 curing or something. I mean, wouldn't the Medallion Cleaner have removed everything from the hood even if Dawn didn't? Or isn't the cleaner strong enough? Or is the problem that I'm not removing the #7 completely? Or is it the #26 curing since I don't notice the haze at first? Although, to be fair I still don't notice the haze in the garage unless I look at just the right angle. In direct sunlight, it's easier to see, but you only see it on body panels that are at the right angle. As you move around the car you see it in new places, and don't see it on places you'd just seen it on. What the heck is going on??

One thing is for sure, the Dawn isn't removing the #26. I'd bet it didn't remove the MPPP because the beading was still there afterwards, but the MPPP beading isn't so amazing that it's unmistakeable. It's possible the bare paint beads that much (although it's pretty freaking unlikely). What is impossible is that Dawn removed the #26. The beading of #26 is totally unmistakeable. It beads so much it almot defies logic. And it still did this after the Dawn.

P.S. Througout this, I've applied Medallion Cleaner, #7, and MPPP (and the original GC) with a PC. The #26 was by hand, and was a paste.

NattyBumppo · 08-07-02, 07:20

I too wondered about the effectiveness of Dawn as a stripping cleaner with #26. When I first tried P21s GEPC and paste wax I did the Dawn wash x2 to get rid of the few layers of #26 that were on the truck. To my amazement, the entire truck still had water beading as good as a newly applied layer of #26 even though the last application was a few weeks old.

As for gettting the gloss you desire, try a layer of P21s/S100 on top of the #26

. You won't be disappointed.

laynlow · 08-07-02, 07:27

I wouldn't mix the APC+ and CG together. Mix your APC+ as instructed in a spray bottle and soak the car down. Let it dwell a few minutes but not dry out, then rinse. Maybe do it twice. Then wash with GC or Dawn and see what you have.

Aurora40 · 08-07-02, 07:40

Any particular reason you wouldn't mix them? I figured the spray routine means that there might be uneven coverage with it. Plus, it increases the chance that it will dry out on the paint. Also, horizontal surfaces will have beaded water which will dilute it. A wash-sponge (I actually use chenille sponges) will push most of that off and keep the dilution about the same. Plus, any dirt or grit will get picked up by the suds and the sponge to reduce scratching. I was just wondering what specifically you think would be the prob with mixing APC+ in with the wash. The dilution for de-waxing is like 64:1 (someone else posted that), so there wouldn't be much of it in the wash bucket.

Natty, thanks for the suggestion, but that doesn't really help me with my current hazing problem. I'd like to know why my current products aren't working right, not what else I could use instead. Thanks, though. I will probably try S100 sometime.

Volvo4Me · 08-07-02, 07:40

Are you applying the #26 too thickly? I know I've had the hazing problem a couple of times (only seen in direct sunlight - usually on the day after waxing) with #26 & with P21S -- but when buffed with MF & QD it's gone -- I figure I am being too heavy handed with the wax and not buffing it out enough - it usually doesn't happen when my husband buffs the wax .

I'm curious about your results with the APC+, also, because I really don't like using Dawn on the car to strip. Be sure to post your results!!

Aurora40 · 08-07-02, 07:47

I suppose that could be it Volvo. I usually put it on a bit thick, but it's because I don't like how it feels when you spread it thin. As you spread it out, it feels like it's drying on the surface and the pad (a Meguiars foam pad) gets sort of grabby on the paint. I don't like that feeling. I only do about a 2'-2' square at the most at a time. I buff right off with a MF before putting more wax on the pad for the next section. I've tried QD and an MF afterwards, but that doesn't seem to fix the hazing.

Actually, the first time I noticed a sort of hazing was from the first time I'd applied the #26. I tried a back-and-forth motion to apply it as I recalled some mention of that (probably for a different product, though). This made it pretty dang hard to get even coverage. You could see the direction I'd applied it at because there was an uneven depth on the paint. It illustrated the extra depth the #26 added, though. I've since started applying the #26 in circles which applies it much much better. But it was more uneven depth than the haze I now am seeing. I dont' know... Ugh...

blkZ28Conv · 08-07-02, 07:51

Virgin paint will bead also. The beading you are seeing may be this not residual #26.
When I used Meg#26 in the past I had a problem with hazing only seen at certain angles. I too think that I was applying too heavily and not buffing completely. As suggested P21S will not haze and has a better shine. Also it is light-years easier to use.

Volvo4Me · 08-07-02, 08:02

Quote:

Originally posted by Aurora40
I suppose that could be it Volvo. I usually put it on a bit thick, but it's because I don't like how it feels when you spread it thin. As you spread it out, it feels like it's drying on the surface and the pad (a Meguiars foam pad) gets sort of grabby on the paint. I don't like that feeling. I only do about a 2'-2' square at the most at a time.

I agree! It's hard to get used to using it as thin as I probably should!!

Another question -- does the hazing follow the direction you are applying the wax (up & down when you did that -- circular when you did it that way)? Ours was up & down, and that was the direction we applied the wax, so that's how we figured it was the excess wax.

Good luck figuring it out!! Sometimes detailing can be so confusing!!! :scared

samiam513 · 08-07-02, 08:04

go get a new mitt, and dilute the apc to the proper dilution (it says on the back for dewaxing)

then use the old mitt to wash your ar with this. mark teh mitt some way so you will only use this mitt for dee waxing. You don't want to dewax a panel by accident.

You will then have a evenly dewaxed car.

rjstaaf · 08-07-02, 08:19

Quote:

Originally posted by Aurora40
I suppose that could be it Volvo. I usually put it on a bit thick, but it's because I don't like how it feels when you spread it thin. As you spread it out, it feels like it's drying on the surface and the pad (a Meguiars foam pad) gets sort of grabby on the paint. I don't like that feeling. I only do about a 2'-2' square at the most at a time. I buff right off with a MF before putting more wax on the pad for the next section. I've tried QD and an MF afterwards, but that doesn't seem to fix the hazing.

Actually, the first time I noticed a sort of hazing was from the first time I'd applied the #26. I tried a back-and-forth motion to apply it as I recalled some mention of that (probably for a different product, though). This made it pretty dang hard to get even coverage. You could see the direction I'd applied it at because there was an uneven depth on the paint. It illustrated the extra depth the #26 added, though. I've since started applying the #26 in circles which applies it much much better. But it was more uneven depth than the haze I now am seeing. I dont' know... Ugh...

I have been through the PPC, #7 and #26 routine just this past weekend. When I apply #7 or #26 with my PC it puts down such an even and thin layer that I never notice the haze. It is when I apply by hand that I notice the haze in both #7 and #26. A little extra rubbing with your MF should rub it out though. You have to keep an eye on it at each stage to make sure you buff it out completely until you can't see the haze.

laynlow · 08-07-02, 08:40

Quote:

Originally posted by Aurora40
Any particular reason you wouldn't mix them? I figured the spray routine means that there might be uneven coverage with it.

I wouldn't mix it with a shampoo because it may negate its effectiveness. Without a shampoo, I would not want to be rubbing the cleaner around on my finish due to the lack of the lubrication. Also, when I was speaking to Meguiars about using it as a de-waxer, their suggestion was just to spray it on, let it dwell, and rinse it off. A couple times over should do the trick. All you really want it to do is break the wax bond. The wash afterwards will do the rest.

Also, like mentioned above you paint may bead without protection. Does it squeak when you drag your finger across it?

Aurora40 · 08-07-02, 09:28

Hmm... That is a good point Laynlow. Perhaps I will just spray it on. I suppose if I followed with a nice wash, then that would be ok. The APC+ wouldn't be pushed around on the surface to scratch anything.

I am beginning to think Volvo4me and BlkZ28 are right about it being the #26. I do put it on thick, and I've never had that problem until I started using #26 (which in and of itself isn't necessarily conclusive). The haze sort of follows the hand application in a few little places, but mostly it is patchy and bloby. Almost like an old oil-slick except hazy instead of rainbowy.

I realize that paint can bead, but there is no way in hell it could bead as much as it was. I mean, I'm talking insane beading. Plus, the first time I Dawned, it only beaded like the MPPP does. Not insane beading. If it was actually stripped both times, then why the insane beading this time? Plus, the hazing was still there. I know it isn't in the paint, and if the Dawn removed everything then the haze should be removed too.

My finger does not squeak on the paint, and it really feels like it has wax on it. It's nice and slick.

Thanks a lot for all the advice.

Here's what I've done as a test. I just QD'd one part of the hood, and I will take a look at it later today in the sun to see if the hazing is gone from that part. I also applied some Medallion Cleaner to the hood in another part (plus, a big part of the hood I didn't touch). I want to see two things about the cleaner. One, did it remove the hazing? And Two, will that part of the panel not bead as much tomorrow when I hose it down to wash again? Maybe it will do nothing, or maybe it will strip a little #26 just to where the haze is gone, or maybe it will completely remove everything (which is what it seems like it ought to do, but not what it seems like it actually does). Also, tomorrow after I strip the car and apply the #7, I'll go light on the #26 application. I'll let you know how it all turns out.

If I continue to have problems with the hazing, I'll try P21S. However, I'd like to get the stuff I have working. I just bought the #26, so I have a heck of a lot of it!