Layer Zymol?

[lbls1]

and Mike (Calgary) has done some incredible work as well!!!

I'll be honest with you (as some of us Zymol fans here may know) in that I'm not a field glaze fan at the moment. I have used field glaze earlier with concours, and initially I thought it was good; Later I observed that it left my paint with excessive haze and unsettled gloss. I may try field glaze again to see if my application will yield different results.

I don't want to offend anyone, as you should use any products that you see fit. It has been my experience that in using several different qds, that I have found the megs and mothers types of the otc qd sprays to have been among the lowest in quality. The megs has left my car with a greasy and hazy feel after several uses. A qd should lightly enhance the paint with cleaning lingering dust, some hazing from oxidizing wax, and just leaving a hint of gloss over the paint. So far, I've had my best experiences from Sonus' Carnauba Spritz, and the more commonly found Zymol Detail. For a fresh EG finish, my go to qd will be the Sonus.

I'd also give pinnacle, poorboys, and perhaps the field glaze QDs a shot.

[TH0001]

wow, Dave from Zymol is full of crap...

The oils in his wax are going to magically maintain the flex agents in the paint..lol...

By the way, the solvents in wax are so strong (they turn a wax that is harder then concrete into a soft pilable substance) into a soft pliable substance that they will remove most of the previous coat, period.

Addiontal coats will ensure even coverage, but it is very unlikely that you build any greater thickness then the original coat because of the solvents.

But my favorite part is how after 7 or 8 coats you can magically tell that the paint is maxed out and the wax will not bond because most of the wax you apply with simply wipe away instead of bond to the paint.

Over 90 percent of the product (on very thin coats) is wiped away anyways...

That post is another reason why if you want real answers call a formulator or somebody that is independent but has experience in the chemical engineering. Product manufacturers and product reps give out some of the worst information their is...

[lbls1]

Pure waxes will not remove previous coatings. I know this from experience. A good test would be to test different waxes over a contaminated (dried water spots) surface. A true wax (p21s, Zymol, Victoria, Swissvax) will not remove the spotting, even with a little bit of effort. Any other lsp product that removes the spotting or smudges will not have layering (or limited layering) abilities.

If you have some information to share that will prove that pure waxes (meaning products that are defined as carnauba waxes, and not waxes that contain cleaners or synthetic sealant ingredients) will not layer beyond previous coatings, then I would like to see or be directed to the information.

Now......its not to say that you should believe everything that a product rep or the advertising information will tell you. However, if a consumer is asking about product information from this assigned representative, then without having further information from the "independent" source, one would have to arbitrarily trust the statement made by that representative. Not necessarily the best position to be in, but it is a more reliable source than other opinions and heresay.

The only thing that right now we can be sure about is that the notion of layering will be a continued topic of debate.

[TH0001]

The problem is it is impossible to "prove" one way or another because each "layer" of product is so thin (I have been told about 1/1000th of a micron but I don't know for sure if its true) that it cannot be measured with very expensive lasers.

I pure wax (with out cleaners) still contains the same very strong solvents that transformed little flakes of wax that where harder the concrete into a soft, pilable substance when the wax was in its natural forum. When you have a microscopically thin layer of wax on your paint and reapply the solvents back on top of the microscopically thin layer wax, combined with the aggitation of the new product being applied to going remove any wax not tightly anchored into the pours of the paint. The same product is going to be removed when the excess is removed.

Additonal coats probably do contribute to an increase in apperance as a more even coat is applied over the surface and more of the microscopic areas are coated.

[calgarydetail]

just as an fyi, not to cause more debate, but zymol dosent use solvents, they use "natural" (mot sure how natural they really are) oils to emulisfiy the wax. This is the reason for the sweating, the oils o not evaporate the same way as the solvents in other waxes.

I have a feeling the debate over if you can layer wax will go on for years, and the same agruments as always will be brought up...I do however know one thing, multiple layers of the zymol esate glazes do look better then a single layer. So regardless of protection the look of multiple layrs looks better then one

[lbls1]

Technically it probably isn't impossible to prove; In common practice, however, it would be hard to prove, since a rolling test lab isn't in the reach of most end users.

You would have to physically observe the effects to come to a conclusion. As I've said before, if such products that have solvents which would dissolve layers beneath it (such as cleaner lsp products), then small surface particles such as water, grease and dust spots would be removed. The effects (witnessed) in which non-cleaning agent waxes can glide over the surface residue without removing them could serve as an example of its ability to layer.

Additionally, wax also has to be removed chemically with polishing; It will not necessarily wear off. The sheen and other attributes that produce beading and gloss will wear away, but the thin, gum like residue will remain on the paint and dry.

But there are volumes upon volumes of heresay posts here in the annals of Autopia on the topic of layering. For practical uses, one would want a pure wax or lsp for its ability in "depositing" and enhancing gloss and depth in paint.

[TH0001]

I don't think water spots and residue removal mean's anything because their is still solvent in the product that keeps the carnauba in emulsion. The carrier used may not be strong enough to have the correct properties to remove a particular contaminent but it definetly works on wax (as the fact that you can apply it proves).

Remember that when wax is in its natural state it is at its absolute hardest. If the solvent used in the emulison is strong enough to soften this super hard natural chunk of wax, it is not going to think twice about softening the current and microscopically thin layer of mostly oil that is on the paint.

Calgary-as far as which solvent (or natural oils) are used to soften and emulisfy the wax, I don't think it matters. The point is that the chemical is strong enough to work on natural hard wax, it is going to laugh at a microscopic layer of barely wax.

[CorruptedSanity]

I didnt know the topic was this debatable or was subject to debate. Ill just layer, the worst ill be doing is just touching up and wasting wax (which is not a bad thing since ill prolly pick up some atlantinque or destiny).

[calgarydetail]

Originally Posted by TH0001

I don't think water spots and residue removal mean's anything because their is still solvent in the product that keeps the carnauba in emulsion. The carrier used may not be strong enough to have the correct properties to remove a particular contaminent but it definetly works on wax (as the fact that you can apply it proves).

Remember that when wax is in its natural state it is at its absolute hardest. If the solvent used in the emulison is strong enough to soften this super hard natural chunk of wax, it is not going to think twice about softening the current and microscopically thin layer of mostly oil that is on the paint.

Calgary-as far as which solvent (or natural oils) are used to soften and emulisfy the wax, I don't think it matters. The point is that the chemical is strong enough to work on natural hard wax, it is going to laugh at a microscopic layer of barely wax.

do you layer sealents? they also need solvents to emulsify the sealent base (there are a few diffrent types n the makrket) so would say that its pointless to layer selants? the logic should be similar

btw i have a feeling we are going to have to agree to disagree on this like we have in the past on which waxes are better then others

[calgarydetail]

Originally Posted by CorruptedSanity

I didnt know the topic was this debatable or was subject to debate. Ill just layer, the worst ill be doing is just touching up and wasting wax (which is not a bad thing since ill prolly pick up some atlantinque or destiny).

go for broke and get vintage, you wont regret it

[lbls1]

Spotting is a tangible test to any product's ability of layering or removal. If a product cannot remove something as easily cleanable as a dust spot, then how would it possibly remove a dried layer of an lsp? If the product lays on top of a moveable mass of dust, then it will lay right on top of a dried layer of film, irrespective of its chemical manufacturing process.

Emulsification is just a method that transforms the solid raw product into the consumer wax. The final wax ingredient would be entirely different than the agents that were used in manufacturing the product. The chemical manufacturing, as well as the chemicals in the end product's make-up wouldn't necessarily exhibit cleaning or dissolving abilities, unless the end product was specifically formulated to clean or dissolve dirt and contaminants.

In the end, we would need an analysis of different products conducted by a chemist in order to prove or dis-prove the issue of layering. There are tangible attributes that suggest that some lsp products layer. But to actually measure amounts of lsp deposits, one would have to analyze a surface and the amount of residue that a product would leave behind.

[SuperBee364]

Originally Posted by calgarydetail

do you layer sealents? they also need solvents to emulsify the sealent base (there are a few diffrent types n the makrket) so would say that its pointless to layer selants? the logic should be similar

btw i have a feeling we are going to have to agree to disagree on this like we have in the past on which waxes are better then others

I really hate to get in on this, but I just gotta respond to this one...

Have you ever used epoxy? Once epoxy cures, it is no longer solveable by non-cured epoxy. Many substances are this way; once they cure, they are no longer solveable. Portland cement, epoxy, mortar, etc. are all good examnples of this. Even Elmer's Glue isn't solveable by itself once it dries. I haven't tried it, but I have a feeling that most paint sealants are the same way.

Talking about "natural" solvents doesn't really hold water, either. Some of the most powerful chemicals occur "naturally". Hydrochloric Acid, Cyanide, etc. all occur "naturally". Don't ever accept a glass of "Peach Pit Juice". Just because the solvents (and don't kid yourself, they are real solvents) in Vintage occur "naturally" doesn't mean they are more gentle, or anything else. It means they are effective at solving and holding in suspension the carnauba wax. The fact that they are able to maintain VOC regulations is why they are used. Well, and the "natural oils" advertising doesn't hurt, either.

Guys, we can sit here and argue this back and forth til we're all blue in the face. Without having degrees in chemistry, we will just sound like a bunch of kids arguing across the back yard fence.

Use your products and enjoy them.