new & improved PO106ff - Page 4

SuperBee364 · 07-02-08, 02:15

Quote:
Originally Posted by jsilver6
If someone insists that a product in some way performs differently than designed and they wish to maintain that belief, then so be it. I can only hope that their skill level improves to match the quality of the product.

OK, I lied. I have to say something about this...

In one sentence, Mr. Silver manages to be arrogant, condescending, and call into question the competence of one of *the most* competent and well respected people in the professional detailinng community. Bravo.

If Todd's skill level needs to improve to "match the quality of the product", then I *know* that I am far too incompetent to use such a superior product. I guess I better find something that is more of a match for my skill level.

jsilver6 · 07-02-08, 04:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by SuperBee364

Quote:
Originally Posted by jsilver6
If someone insists that a product in some way performs differently than designed and they wish to maintain that belief, then so be it. I can only hope that their skill level improves to match the quality of the product.

OK, I lied. I have to say something about this...

In one sentence, Mr. Silver manages to be arrogant, condescending, and call into question the competence of one of *the most* competent and well respected people in the professional detailinng community. Bravo.

If Todd's skill level needs to improve to "match the quality of the product", then I *know* that I am far too incompetent to use such a superior product. I guess I better find something that is more of a match for my skill level.

Mr. SuerBee364,

In a thread discussing the PO106 polish line, you felt it necessary to once again bring up a trait you claim to have seen called filling. No one can challenge your perception, and certainly I never did. I did state a fact that you refuse to accept, in that there is nothing in the contents that will cause filling.

The information I am providing to you is based on actual product knowledge and independent testing by laboratories and by the many industries that are successfully using our product. These include the factories that are producing the parts and assembled automobiles that you ultimately detail.

I do find your name calling to be immature and uncalled for and not in the spirit of honest discussion or dissent.

My experience in the polishing industry has taught me that in the vast majority of cases, regardless of the product being used and with all of the variables associated with the polishing operation, it is rarely the product that is the cause of a problem. This is especially the case with a mature product that has been on the market for years producing superior result. We assist our customers with their wide variety of polishing issues every day, and it is very gratifying to hear that they ultimately were able to resolve their issue.

As for your indignant outrage that I would call into question the competence of an individual that you have profound reverence for, someone that was not part of this discussion, nor mentioned in any way, I can't help you here. No offense was intended and none should be taken.

If you really are interested in discussing polishing issues, I invite your to do what many do every day and call my office. I don't believe you ever have. Public foot stomping is not very becoming for a professional.

Dave1 · 07-02-08, 04:22

The lubricating vehicle to support the components necessary to remove clear coat is probably the crux of the issue.......

Calling it a couplant, lubrication or "filler" may end up being moot.....

Meguairs has "trade secrets" and offer many, many products for their customers......

I don't sweat it.......

106 and 85RD are good products basically and I don't see what the big fuss is all about in the end..........

Bunky · 07-02-08, 04:26

I know the words "no fillers" is clearly stated but I think the words seem carefully chosen.

I had read a post on another forum that suggested this effect could be caused by solvents in the polish that make the paint swell giving it a false finished appearance.

What the manufacturer should do in a situation like this is investigate this with experienced users to understand and then educate on how to prevent it rather than just state they are not using it correctly. This will lead to better customer satisfaction.

Holden_C04 · 07-02-08, 04:35

Regardless of the matter at hand, a little bit less indignation and a little bit more respect from all involved would aid in a positive conclusion from this thread.

detaildoc · 07-02-08, 04:46

Phil has indeed been carrying this for a while, so this 106FA is not a new product at all. It is my understanding that 106FA is not an improved version of FF, but rather a different version with longer working time.

SuperBee364 · 07-02-08, 06:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Holden_C04

Regardless of the matter at hand, a little bit less indignation and a little bit more respect from all involved would aid in a positive conclusion from this thread.

Agreed. I'm just as guilty of doing what I'm accusing Mr. Silver of. It's geting no where, fast. Especially since he's convinced that his product is perfect, and his reponses are appropriate to the situation.

I held my tongue all last year when this argument raged, knowing that he would stick to his guns with his "maybe you'll someday be as good as our product" responses. I don't know why I thought this time would be any different.

Bigpoppa3346 · 07-02-08, 06:53

Lol, I seriously have never seen anyone simply deny something like what is going on here. How many people have experienced 106 filling? Like, most experienced detailers on this site? I guess all of our "perceptions" must be FUBAR, then, and 106 is the miracle product? Face it, yeah, maybe there is nothing in the contents of 106 that cause filling, but when it hits paint, and you work it, and wipe off, then a number of months later there is micromarring/hologramming re-appearing, then there is filling going on.

Whatever, it's been a rough day, it's hot, and the car I'm working on won't correct for sh!t.

P1et · 07-02-08, 09:10

Not for the sake of argument, just for my personal knowledge, but isn't Menzerna made for very specific environments, where the temperature, humidity, type of paint, and machinery is taken into consideration? Since Menzerna was never made for the shade-tree detailer, could it be that "errors" are creeping into the product by the way we are using it?

On a personal note, I have always been very pleased with my SIP (when it's not humid outside) and above all, my 85RD.

TH0001 · 07-02-08, 09:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by jsilver6

For the record, nobody was called a liar. Menzerna will not make a statement that is false, even if suggested by a loyal customer.

From 6speedonline.com

Quote:

Originally Posted by jsilver6

But please do not create a false story and attribute it to a third party conversation.

Sounds like you called me a liar?

Quote:

Originally Posted by jsilver6

We manufacture and sell buffing compounds and polish to professionals and industrial customers. We don't intentionally create bad blood, however we cannot prevent some people from getting themselves confused. If someone insists that a product in some way performs differently than designed and they wish to maintain that belief, then so be it. I can only hope that their skill level improves to match the quality of the product.

Just to clarify, when you say "we" do you mean Menzerna or Menzerna USA (which to my knowledge does no manufacturing)? If I am wrong I would love to be corrected, but to my knowledge you are an importer and distributor, correct?

As far as questioning the skill level of the users and blaming the product on them, your rather childish comment makes no sense for several reasons...

1) You claim it cannot fill, period. So how does miss use make the product do somethign that it simply cannot do. If it has zero potenital for product masking, then no matter who uses it, you cannot trick the product into doing something it cannot.

If it absolutely cannot fill then guess what.... it cannot fill no matter who uses it. This is common logic which you have failed to acknowledge.

2) Here is a list of people you have included in your answer (people who have publically stated that Menzerna fills. I will not include the names of over 40 people who have PM'd me privately out of respect. I would not want them pubically outed as somebody whom Jeff Silver doesn't believe has the skill to use the products he imports).

Scott Harris aka Scott Wax
Kevin aka Picus
Ryan Blanchette aka rydawg
David Fermani aka David Fermani
Pat McCall aka Pats300ZX
Jason aka DeepGlossAutoSaloon
Brian Brice aka VASuperShine

a quick search of this forum (if you have the time) will reveal 15 or so more names.

The funny thing about this names I listed is each of these guys is amongst the most respected detailers in the WORLD, and honestly, each of there standards is much higher then the OEM and bodyshop guys you hold in such regard.

Infact, if Menzerna is so good then why have I had to polish buffer trails out of 7 brand new (off the crate) Mercedes??? I mean surely if the OEM guys and bodyshops guys where so good I wouldn't get paid to teach them how to use your products.

The problem is that the detailers on this site who have noticed the flaw in the products you import are much more picky and have a much better eye then the body shop guys whose opinions you seem to credit.

Quote:

Originally Posted by jsilver6

n a thread discussing the PO106 polish line, you felt it necessary to once again bring up a trait you claim to have seen called filling. No one can challenge your perception, and certainly I never did. I did state a fact that you refuse to accept, in that there is nothing in the contents that will cause filling.

Jeff I HIGHLY suggest you try this test. Take mineral oil, polish the car with a fine buffing pad (on swirled paint) and remove. Now carefully observe the section you just polished vs the unpolished section and please tell me if you don't notice that the mineral oil has "filled" in the defects.

Mineral oil is contained in your products, and when I spoke to a rep from England, he clearly stated that 106 contains a lubricating wax (I cannot verify the wax statement as it is third party, but perhaps you could clarify. I believe he mentioned it was Parrafin wax, but I could be very wrong). Menzerna does use an oil in water emulsion as a carrier, and if you do not think that this, by itself, can fill products I heavly suggest that you research the ingrediants yourself before making bold claims.

The top detailers (the ones who fix the OEM mistakes made by your coveted experts) in the world have publically stated that they have witnessed Menzerna filling.

I wish you would have handled it better. Many product lines that I know of would have completely investigated the claims and researched the problem thoroughly. You instead took a defensive (and sometimes offensive such as when you called me a liar) approach and claimed that the top detailers are wrong. I understand you are in bussiness to make money and the truth is that high end detailers comprise a very small piece of your financial pie, but I think it shows an alarming amount of hubris for you to ignore the problem.

TH0001 · 07-02-08, 09:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bigpoppa3346

Lol, I seriously have never seen anyone simply deny something like what is going on here. How many people have experienced 106 filling? Like, most experienced detailers on this site? I guess all of our "perceptions" must be FUBAR, then, and 106 is the miracle product? Face it, yeah, maybe there is nothing in the contents of 106 that cause filling, but when it hits paint, and you work it, and wipe off, then a number of months later there is micromarring/hologramming re-appearing, then there is filling going on.

Whatever, it's been a rough day, it's hot, and the car I'm working on won't correct for sh!t.

Isn't also amazing that almost all dark color Mercedes come off the crate with some degree of micromarring... I won't touch body shops for obvious reasons...

TH0001 · 07-02-08, 09:27

Personally, it pains me to put money into Jeff Silver's pocket. I actually love Menzerna products just not the guy who IMPORTS them.