Should the government bail-out include domestic automakers? - Page 8

Spilchy · 11-14-08, 02:34

I don't have the heart or stamina to read this whole thread. Sorry if what I say has been mentioned. In no way should we bail them out. Why on Earth would we give billions to the exact same people that screwed it up to begin with? That's crazy. The bozo that heads Chrysler received a $200 million golden parachute when he was FIRED from Home Depot. He was a schmuck to begin with.

Einstein said the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again expecting a different result.

dave40co · 11-14-08, 03:00

I say they should file a BK and renegotiate the Union contracts. Hourly cost for an American automaker worker is $70 but for foreign automakers it is $40. The unions have priced them selfs out. I know how it works since I was a union worker for UAL when it went under. I also believe the upper management should take HUGE cuts.

Len_A · 11-14-08, 03:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr. Clean

Spoken by an industry "insider"....And so why again should the American public want to cast their dollars to an industry that doesn't have a logical/healthy business model/plan? Note, I'm not singling out just the automakers by this statement. But, to argue that "our industry is special" "we don't conduct business the way others do" well tdb. If you don't and they do, they are profitable and you're not, you wouldn't have to pay me $16million (or whatever the numbers are) to figure out something is wrong and we need to fix it. Don't wait until the ship is up to the gunwales in water before it is decided that there are holes in the hull that need to be repaired. Instead, again basing this on the Chrysler situtation, we'll just hail down the public to help us bail.

Name another business group that not only gets a lot of government regulation, but gets as much conflicting regulations? NHTSA gets safety standards going, which tend to increase the weight of the car, making the gas mileage standards more difficult to meet. Then their's the whole problem of emissions.

And this problem doesn't just hit GM, Ford or Chrysler. Toyota's recent (by recent I mean since 2003) problem with engine oil sludge in everything from Corolla 4 cylinder's to Lexus V-8's. Problem has been traced to increasing engine operating temperatures to lower emissions. Let's not even forget Toyota's transmission problems, in the 2007 Camry and Avalon, Honda's oil filter related engine fires in the CR-V, etc. And for all of Chrysler's quality problems, assuming they survive, Nissan is basing their next generation full size pick-up on the new Dodge Ram platform and it will be built by Chrysler. Nissan isn't talking about what they plant for their very young Canton, Mississippi plant.

Then on top of all the regulation, there's conflicting consumer tastes - sporty ride verses boulevard smooth, how aggressive the transmissions shift, basic transportation (no matter what size segment) verses loaded luxury. Plus changing market conditions, liek the run up in gas pries taking even Toyota and Nissan by surprise, hit the market with high gas prices just as their five year product plan of getting into the light truck market was coming to fruition.

Which consumer product business gets nailed like this - Federal government interference, Federal court interference (give my wife her job), and then market factors changing faster than you can bring a new product to market?

Then what other industry is reported to affect 1 in 10 jobs (and that's supposed to include the dealers and all the businesses that depend on them)?

Len_A · 11-14-08, 03:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by dave40co

I say they should file a BK and renegotiate the Union contracts. Hourly cost for an American automaker worker is $70 but for foreign automakers it is $40. The unions have priced them selfs out. I know how it works since I was a union worker for UAL when it went under. I also believe the upper management should take HUGE cuts.

Toyota, Honda & Nissan hourly costs are more like $48 to $49 an hour, and should the three Detroit automakers make it to 2010, their costs drop to very close to that, around $51 an, due to major changes in the union contract just negotiated this past September and October, 2007. One report even claimed that GM would actually have a $200 a car advantage over Toyota in 2010.

Mercedes and BMW are at the same level as Toyota and company. Only Hyundai is at $40 an hour, and they made no bones about it when they announced their USA assembly operations, that those wages were to undercut Toyota's selling prices.

2002 Z06 · 11-14-08, 03:14

Someone on another board stated, "Where's my bail money?"...I couldn't agree more.

Bunky · 11-14-08, 03:21

Unless you have a job with the US government, you will likely be affected by the demise of GM or Ford. If you are a detailer, you have not seen anything near the bottom yet. The reprecussions (deserved or not) have yet to hit. There will be no recovery in 2009. Until at all the kung pao has hit the fan, it is not likely going up.

Setec Astronomy · 11-14-08, 03:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spilchy

Why on Earth would we give billions to the exact same people that screwed it up to begin with? The bozo that heads Chrysler received a $200 million golden parachute when he was FIRED from Home Depot. He was a schmuck to begin with.

One of the posters in this thread has been out of work for 14 months, probably thru no fault of his own, but a guy who got FIRED gets $200 million. Your assessment of "why give it to the people who screwed it up" fits pretty well with letting Paulson and Bernanke run the bailout when they were the ones in charge when it blew up.

soccerjunky · 11-14-08, 03:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by Inzane

Do you work for General Motors?

I will admit that the new Malibu and CTS have made great strides at becoming very competitive in their classes. Those are but two examples in GM passenger cars that stand out from a sea of mediocrity.

But the Pontiac G6... they are crap.

I can't say I know anyone who "admires" the Chevrolet brand. WHO around the world admires them?

(Other than within the Corvette niche? Corvettes are special in their own way and don't deserve to be lumped in with the rest of Chevy most of the time.)

Bunky · 11-14-08, 03:46

This is crazy. Chrysler (Jeep, Chrysler, Dodge) leads the group as a pack?

Setec Astronomy · 11-14-08, 03:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bunky

This is crazy. Chrysler (Jeep, Chrysler, Dodge) leads the group as a pack?

No, they are at the bottom. The top is the best (least defects). Interestingly, all GM divs are above average (well the traditional car ones, GMC and Saturn are worse), and the Ford divs are better than GM.

Len_A · 11-14-08, 03:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Setec Astronomy

No, they are at the bottom. The top is the best (least defects). Interestingly, all GM divs are above average (well the traditional car ones, GMC and Saturn are worse), and the Ford divs are better than GM.

And Ford is right behind Toyota, and Honda (Mercury is slightly ahead of Honda) and all Ford division is ahead of Acura.

Most of GM is ahead of Acura.

Bunky · 11-14-08, 04:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Setec Astronomy

No, they are at the bottom. The top is the best (least defects). Interestingly, all GM divs are above average (well the traditional car ones, GMC and Saturn are worse), and the Ford divs are better than GM.

It was crazy. Whew....down they go....