Should the government bail-out include domestic automakers?

[Danase]

Originally Posted by Len_A

Understood and acknowledged!!

Scary is an understatement. I hope things start turning around here in our area.

You and me both! I'm surprised we haven't had a huge jump in crimes lately. Usually when the economy gets this bad robberies and stuff really sky rocket.

[Inzane]

Originally Posted by Len_A

I was going to go out and at least shovel a path for my dog Sisko to go take care of business - just as I'm going out, the wind gusts pick up and the sleet came down for about six or seven minutes!! Sisko took one look at it, and then looked up at me, and went back in the living room and got back in his dog bed. Like "No way I'm going in that, Lenny! I'll hold it for a little longer!" He finally went out five mintutes later, and the snow is up past his chest (he's an eighteen pound Shih Tzu, so he's already low to the ground.

That's hilarious. I have an 18 lb Shih-Tzu as well, named Odie. I've been having trouble with him going out to do his business lately too. However, in our case up here its been the extreme cold that is the problem. We've had a lot of days of -25 Celcius lately. (that's -13 F).

Shih-Tzus are great, aren't they.

[Mr. Clean]

Originally Posted by MotorCity

...WASHINGTON (AP) -- The Bush administration came to the rescue of the deeply troubled U.S. auto industry Friday, offering $17.4 billion in loans in exchange for concessions from carmakers and their workers.
...
Bush said the rescue package demanded concessions similar to those outlined in a bailout plan that was approved by the House but rejected by the Senate a week ago. It would give the automakers three months to come up with restructuring plans to become viable companies.

If they fail to produce a plan by March 31, the automakers will be required to repay the loans, which they would find very difficult.

"The time to make hard decisions to become viable is now, or the only option will be bankruptcy," Bush said. "The automakers and unions must understand what is at stake and make hard decisions necessary to reform."

Bush's plan is designed to keep the auto industry running in the short term, passing the longer-range problem on to the incoming administration of President-elect Barack Obama.

Let's all hope that this is all it takes to get these ships righted.

The highlighted areas concerns me. Why do they need even 3 weeks (3 days or 3 hours for that matter) to provide a plan? If they haven't already formulated a detailed plan by now the resident management teams should be dismissed immediately. A small businessman would be required to present a business plan to his banker before securing a loan. My thoughts are that within those 90 days x portion of the plan(s) should be implemented and within 90 more days a complete report should be provided showing verifiable progress. A periodic reporting period should then be followed. These people (GM/Chrysler/Cerberus management) need to be on a short leash until they can prove themselves.

Has anything been said about what interest rate will be charged for these loans?

And back to my first statment...How are these loans going to help GM/Chrysler sell more cars when there are so many consumers who are either unwilling or unable to purchase due to their personal financial situations?

[Len_A]

Originally Posted by Inzane

That's hilarious. I have an 18 lb Shih-Tzu as well, named Odie. I've been having trouble with him going out to do his business lately too. However, in our case up here its been the extreme cold that is the problem. We've had a lot of days of -25 Celcius lately. (that's -13 F).

Shih-Tzus are great, aren't they.

How old is yours? Min turned thirteen this past Tuesday. He's in good shape for his age, A little arthritis and the start of a heart murmur, but he dos a two mile walk almost everyday, weather permitting the only hang up. Plays like a rambunctious madman. He's got cataracts too, but sees decent enough to chase his ball around the house when I play with him , which is everyday. He's my best buddy. I can't imagine life without this little guy. Shih Tzu's are the best!

[Len_A]

Originally Posted by Mr. Clean

Let's all hope that this is all it takes to get these ships righted.

The highlighted areas concerns me. Why do they need even 3 weeks (3 days or 3 hours for that matter) to provide a plan? If they haven't already formulated a detailed plan by now the resident management teams should be dismissed immediately. A small businessman would be required to present a business plan to his banker before securing a loan. My thoughts are that within those 90 days x portion of the plan(s) should be implemented and within 90 more days a complete report should be provided showing verifiable progress. A periodic reporting period should then be followed. These people (GM/Chrysler/Cerberus management) need to be on a short leash until they can prove themselves.

Has anything been said about what interest rate will be charged for these loans?

And back to my first statment...How are these loans going to help GM/Chrysler sell more cars when there are so many consumers who are either unwilling or unable to purchase due to their personal financial situations?

Good questions all around. All three Detroit automakers have had well publicized turnaround plans for a while now, so I wonder how much of this is political blustering and how much is real.

I'll go back to what I said before - this is enough to punt this to the next Congress and the Obama administration. I agree with you - they need to be on a short leash until they prove themselves.I have no argument on that.

Good point on car sales - that's a main issue, because better sales obviously mean better cash flow. Things are so bad, I don't know if you heard, but Reuters reported that Toyota is expected to post their first ever world wide loss for a fiscal year. That's how bad sales are.

[Inzane]

Originally Posted by Len_A

How old is yours? Min turned thirteen this past Tuesday. He's in good shape for his age, A little arthritis and the start of a heart murmur, but he dos a two mile walk almost everyday, weather permitting the only hang up. Plays like a rambunctious madman. He's got cataracts too, but sees decent enough to chase his ball around the house when I play with him , which is everyday. He's my best buddy. I can't imagine life without this little guy. Shih Tzu's are the best!

Mine turned six in August. And he's my best buddy. So much so that my wife gets kinda jealous sometimes. (I'm a first time dog owner with him too, never had pets growing up.)

[Len_A]

Originally Posted by Inzane

Mine turned six in August. And he's my best buddy. So much so that my wife gets kinda jealous sometimes. (I'm a first time dog owner with him too, never had pets growing up.)

LOL! Same here on both counts - dog was wife's idea, I was luke warm on it, he bonded with me, she's jealous and I am also a first time dog owner. Although I think they own us, not the other way around!!

[Inzane]

Originally Posted by Len_A

LOL! Same here on both counts - dog was wife's idea, I was luke warm on it, he bonded with me, she's jealous and I am also a first time dog owner. Although I think they own us, not the other way around!!

Yep, on all counts.

[Mr. Clean]

Originally Posted by Len_A

Good questions all around. All three Detroit automakers have had well publicized turnaround plans for a while now, so I wonder how much of this is political blustering and how much is real.

I'll go back to what I said before - this is enough to punt this to the next Congress and the Obama administration. I agree with you - they need to be on a short leash until they prove themselves.I have no argument on that.

Good point on car sales - that's a main issue, because better sales obviously mean better cash flow. Things are so bad, I don't know if you heard, but Reuters reported that Toyota is expected to post their first ever world wide loss for a fiscal year. That's how bad sales are.

I don't know what more the next Congress or the Obama administration can be asked to do.

Yup, without new vehicle sales, there will be no need to reopen any plants after their scheduled shut down periods. Edmunds is predicting an increase in sales for December as compared to November, but that would still put sales down compared to last year. Don't know if that will be enough.

[Len_A]

Originally Posted by Mr. Clean

I don't know what more the next Congress or the Obama administration can be asked to do.

Yup, without new vehicle sales, there will be no need to reopen any plants after their scheduled shut down periods. Edmunds is predicting an increase in sales for December as compared to November, but that would still put sales down compared to last year. Don't know if that will be enough.

I really don't think it will be enough. I still think we're still looking at a 10 to 11 million unit sales year, and I think everyone, Detroit and transplants alike, will be hard pressed to make any money at that level of sales. This recession is ridiculous. I'm pessimistic that we will see any kind of recovery and that does not bode well for any manufacturing.

[Mr. Clean]

Basing my opinion on some of the economic prognosticators (I mean economists), I don't think that you are being pessimistic, more like realistic. Some say indicators point to a possible recovery in the last part of '09.

One problem is that if the American people hear bad economic news often enough and from many different sources, the whole thing can become a self fulfilling prophecy. I guess we can all be optimistic and hope for a quicker turnaround.

[Len_A]

Originally Posted by Mr. Clean

Basing my opinion on some of the economic prognosticators (I mean economists), I don't think that you are being pessimistic, more like realistic. Some say indicators point to a possible recovery in the last part of '09.

One problem is that if the American people hear bad economic news often enough and from many different sources, the whole thing can become a self fulfilling prophecy. I guess we can all be optimistic and hope for a quicker turnaround.

I think you hit the nail on the head. That's a problem with too much news hitting the public, especial a public that likes it's news in small bites, without a lot of deep thinking. It does become a self fulfilling prophecy, especially with the sale of big ticket items. Now we have the complications of globalization. This downturn is now hitting all over the world, so now we can't even hope for exports leading us of this recession, and that's not encouraging much optimism.