Should the government bail-out include domestic automakers?

[Inzane]

Originally Posted by Len_A

Nothing is going to get settle because of the prejudice and obstinate you display.

And you're not? My bias is no greater than yours appears to be.

[Len_A]

Originally Posted by Inzane

And you're not? My bias is no greater than yours appears to be.

For the last three years, I've been involved in a little side work that involves visiting car dealerships of about all mainstream types. No exotics. I test about 4 different cars a month. Do the math. Until the last half of this year, each quarter, I'd do Cadillac, BMW, M-B, and Lexus back to back, often in the same day, reportin to the same company. Sometimes the company I report to is contracted by J.D. Powers, sometimes by an automaker. Other times, I'd hit one of those areas where ten or twelve different dealers are located along the same one-and-a-half mile stretch, and I'll do two GM brands, a Toyota, a Hyundai, a Nissan, an Infiniti, and Ford dealership in the same week.

Almost 150 different test drives over the last three years. When I make a comparison, it's from recent experience, not rehashing the same complaints. I'm paid to be objective.

[Inzane]

Originally Posted by Len_A

Buckwheat, .

Wow...

Billie Thomas - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I'm not even sure how I'm supposed to take that. If I was African American (which I'm not), should I be offended?

[jfelbab]

Len, people have different tastes in ride, fit and finish, comfort and performance. I recently test drove the Caddy CTS, The MB 550 CLS, and the Lexus LS460. IMO, the CTS doesn't compare well to the LS 460. I didn't care for the harsh MB ride at all. Yet I grant you that my tastes may be entirely different than yours or others. I've been buying new cars every other year since 1964 and I've never ever seen a better paint job on any car than on the new Lexus 460. Absolutely zero orange peel. The paint looked like glass. The CTS paint was terrible. The LS had a very controlled and comfortable ride. A great highway curiser, IMHO. The CTS was quicker and had lots more horsepower but it got worse mileage. The CTS felt more sporty but the Lexus felt more luxurious. The LS was much quieter at highway speeds. IMO, the quality of the materials used inside and out seemed superior in the Lexus LS460. The LS was about $4k more expensive though. Yet what I find better might not be what another buyer thinks is better. It's good to have choice. I'd be interested in your evaluation of these vehicles as I'm considering this purchase.

[Len_A]

Originally Posted by jfelbab

Len, people have different tastes in ride, fit and finish, comfort and performance. I recently test drove the Caddy CTS, The MB 550 CLS, and the Lexus LS460. IMO, the CTS doesn't compare well to the LS 460. I didn't care for the harsh MB ride at all. Yet I grant you that my tastes may be entirely different than yours or others. I've been buying new cars every other year since 1964 and I've never ever seen a better paint job on any car than on the new Lexus 460. Absolutely zero orange peel. The paint looked like glass. The CTS paint was terrible. The LS had a very controlled and comfortable ride. A great highway curiser, IMHO. The CTS was quicker and had lots more horsepower but it got worse mileage. The CTS felt more sporty but the Lexus felt more luxurious. The LS was much quieter at highway speeds. IMO, the quality of the materials used inside and out seemed superior in the Lexus LS460. The LS was about $4k more expensive though. Yet what I find better might not be what another buyer thinks is better. It's good to have choice. I'd be interested in your evaluation of these vehicles as I'm considering this purchase.

CTS isn't in the size class as a Lexus 460, and it supposed to be a sportier ride. In fact, the CTS competes with BMW 3 Series. LS460 is a comparable to the M-B CLS550, but I also like the Lexus better. What model year CTS did you test drive? I'm disappointed that you test drove one with such crappy paint. As far as it's crappy mileage - again, which model?

[Len_A]

A couple of interesting articles:

GM's Hourly Workers Losing Edge Over Salaried Ones - WSJ.com

Auto turmoil casts cloud over factory jobs - Local business- msnbc.com

[Len_A]

Sweden is aiding their automakers:

Kentucky.com Business - Wire

So is Australia:

$6 billion lifeline for car industry - Local News - News - General - The Canberra Times

[jfelbab]

Originally Posted by Len_A

CTS isn't in the size class as a Lexus 460, and it supposed to be a sportier ride. In fact, the CTS competes with BMW 3 Series. LS460 is a comparable to the M-B CLS550, but I also like the Lexus better. What model year CTS did you test drive? I'm disappointed that you test drove one with such crappy paint. As far as it's crappy mileage - again, which model?

The model I test drove was the 2009 CTS V. It reawakened something I had long ago thought would be gone for good. The era of my youth was one of muscle cars with gobs of gut wrenching torque. The CTS was/is a muscle car in a luxury package. It is also quite attractively priced for the performance it delivers.

That said I think I've outgrown the need for the thrill of 0-60 speeds in the sub 5 second category. LOL.

To add to the thread on the bailouts here is a link to NASCAR owner Rick Hendricks that expresses my opinion well.

Hendrick talks bailout - FOX Sports Video on MSN

[Mr. Clean]

I agree with Hendricks on the Chrysler. Let Cerberus put their money in the pot. I can't recall another time in history that the federal government has been asked to fund a privately held company. Am I missing one?

[Len_A]

Originally Posted by jfelbab

The model I test drove was the 2009 CTS V. It reawakened something I had long ago thought would be gone for good. The era of my youth was one of muscle cars with gobs of gut wrenching torque. The CTS was/is a muscle car in a luxury package. It is also quite attractively priced for the performance it delivers.

That said I think I've outgrown the need for the thrill of 0-60 speeds in the sub 5 second category. LOL.

To add to the thread on the bailouts here is a link to NASCAR owner Rick Hendricks that expresses my opinion well.

Hendrick talks bailout - FOX Sports Video on MSN

You pretty much nailed it with the CTS. If I were working, and in the market for a car, CTS would be on my list - I haven't out grown the boy racer thing completely. Of course, I'd insist that Kate Walsh come with the car, at least for a day. Or Two. Maybe a week...

The '09 handles quite well, too.

Good link on Rick Hendricks. He pretty much nails it.

[Len_A]

Originally Posted by Mr. Clean

I agree with Hendricks on the Chrysler. Let Cerberus put their money in the pot. I can't recall another time in history that the federal government has been asked to fund a privately held company. Am I missing one?

No, you're not missing one at all. That one bothers me as well. I never trusted Cerberus. Now that Chrysler's problems has cost my wife her paralegal job, only reason I would still, with some reluctance, support Chrysler getting any money is to keep from screwing up any of the suppliers GM & Ford are relying on. And I say that with several members of my extended family (uncles) and neighbors drawing a Chrysler pension.

[Inzane]

Originally Posted by Len_A

CTS would be on my list - I haven't out grown the boy racer thing completely.

Neither have I, which is why the 335i is on my list.