Should the government bail-out include domestic automakers?

[Inzane]

Originally Posted by Len_A

Do you even know what the hell you're talking about?

There are TWO aspects to "quality". One is the reliability, failure data, recalls side of things.

The other which you seem to be oblivious to is how "nice" something is. The quality of materials and attention to detail. How well it's put together Things like asthetic quality, tactile sensation, road feedback, noise/vibration/harshness, steering feel, seat comfort, switch gear, panel alignment, how the doors feel when you open and close them, etc.

If all you care about is how often something breaks down then I could see why you don't differeniate between a *nice* interior and a cheap interior, or firm sporty suspension and your living room couch.

Even depsite those recalls and problems you mentioned, I would STILL gladly buy a Honda Accord over ANYTHING in the GM stable in those production years you mentioned.

I would pick unreliable class/style over reliable junk any day.


Case in point. My next new car purchase will most likely be a BMW. I'm going in knowing their "reliability" is questionable.... It will be worth it.

[kpounds]

I actually like Tennessee Senator Bob Corker's ideas to be implemented before handing out the money. 10% of US jobs depend on the auto industry, so its important to salvage them. As Mr. Corker said, this is the perfect time for the Union and Auto Co's to make reforms and get things right.

Sen. Bob Corker Disappointed in Current Bailout Plan

Bob Corker On Proposed Bailout of U.S. Automakers

[Len_A]

Originally Posted by kpounds

I actually like Tennessee Senator Bob Corker's ideas to be implemented before handing out the money. 10% of US jobs depend on the auto industry, so its important to salvage them. As Mr. Corker said, this is the perfect time for the Union and Auto Co's to make reforms and get things right.

Sen. Bob Corker Disappointed in Current Bailout Plan

Bob Corker On Proposed Bailout of U.S. Automakers

Senator Corker needs to go to GM's Spring Hill Assembly Plant, and run this by them. The UAW agreed to take GM stock for part of the VEBA from the time the contract talks were concluded last October, 2007. The wages the GM, and for that matter Ford and Chrysler pay, including the two tier wage structure, is already the same, within cents per hour, of Toyota, Nissan, and Honda's. The union agreed two weeks ago to eliminate the jobs bank. The current GM bonds that are out there - they're already being repurchased on the open bond market at 30 cents on the dollar.

Why Corker is putting this out there, and misleading people like you, is something that you will have to ask him about.

[MSOsr]

The drop in the stock market didn't mean $$$$ went somewhere. The price of a share of stock is what a willing seller will sell it for to a willing buyer.

If the share of stock is worth $20 today (willing seller/buyer), but only $15 tomorrow, the "lost" $5 didn't go to anyone.....price is a liquid number that flows according to the economy.

Mike

[kpounds]

Originally Posted by Len_A

Why Corker is putting this out there, and misleading people like you, is something that you will have to ask him about.

You sure wages are that close to foreign competitors? I've heard up to $70 hr for production workers. My brother lives close to the BMW plant in SC and I havent heard of wages in that range. How about #4, the union paying people full pay 4 years after their jobs are finished? It seems obvious that MANY THINGS aren't right, and the Auto Co's and UAW need to tell folks what their plans are for fixing them.

[Len_A]

Originally Posted by kpounds

You sure wages are that close to foreign competitors? I've heard up to $70 hr for production workers. My brother lives close to the BMW plant in SC and I havent heard of wages in that range. How about #4, the union paying people full pay 4 years after their jobs are finished? It seems obvious that MANY THINGS aren't right, and the Auto Co's and UAW need to tell folks what their plans are for fixing them.

That's because the $70 an hour is misleading. That figure includes all costs for the current retirees medical coverage. Once the VEBA (Voluntary Employee Benefits Association) is fully funded, and Corker's figures there are misleading again, because GM doesn't owe anywhere near what he stated - he's including money already paid into the fund as of December, 2007, the hourly labor rate drops down to the point that Toyota no longer has an advantage.

The figures you hear are quoted in order to rile you up. Almost all of this was addressed in thelast contract, negotiated in October of 2007. The only thing that has gone wrong since then is that the credit market's imploded (not GM, Ford, or Chrysler's doing, neither is it Toyota, Honda, or Nissan's doing either),and cash flow has gone to hell with a further drop in sales. Plus gas prices spiked to over $4 a gallon, and that hurt sales as well.

One of the figures that the jack@ss opponents is that Toyota lost $336.9 million in the United States last quarter. No one can make money at this low level of car sales.

[kpounds]

I agree with the riling up, that's about what the media is good at and giving us half the story. I am FOR the bailout, but I think changes need to be made. One overall GREAT change we could make is changing the tax system in this country to favor businesses, instead of the 15,000+ tax law IRS monstrosity we have now. (How do you get up to 15,000 tax laws?!?) The USA has the 2nd highest Corporate tax of all countries in the world.

Blog - America The Uncompetitive

Wall Street Journal - America The Uncompetitive

[Len_A]

Originally Posted by kpounds

I agree with the riling up, that's about what the media is good at and giving us half the story. I am FOR the bailout, but I think changes need to be made. One overall GREAT change we could make is changing the tax system in this country to favor businesses, instead of the 15,000+ tax law IRS monstrosity we have now. (How do you get up to 15,000 tax laws?!?) The USA has the 2nd highest Corporate tax of all countries in the world.

Blog - America The Uncompetitive

Wall Street Journal - America The Uncompetitive

I couldn't agree more. With most of the press, it's all about selling advertising.

Our whole tax structure sucks. Every time they try fix it, they end up making it worse.

[soundman98]

I just finished reading through all 27 pages, and can honestly say that non of it has changed my mind, just confirmed it. we need bailouts not because any one of these companies deserve it, we need these bailouts because of the aftermath that it will cause if any of the automakers declare bankruptcy. I completely agree that not a singe one of thee companies is truly deserving of a handout (loan companies included)

I think that ALL of the companies that have recieved part of the bailout money, or are trying to get some, DESERVE to fail, but, we CANNOT let them b/c of who/what they will effect.

Len A, my sympathy goes out to you and your family. The bailout has to go through for the millions that are in the same boat as you.

from reading though the posts, I haver gathered that a lot of people still don't understand that this will have a GLOBAL EFFECT. If gm (or ford or chrysler) goes down, every automaker in the world will be immensely affected. some of you seem to look at the automakers as individial companies, they could not be farther from the truth, each and every automaker is tied together, through their suppliers, reguardless of what contry or state the plant is located in.

Thats way I am for the bailout, but against the companies that are getting it

[Len_A]

Originally Posted by Inzane

There are TWO aspects to "quality". One is the reliability, failure data, recalls side of things.

The other which you seem to be oblivious to is how "nice" something is. The quality of materials and attention to detail. How well it's put together Things like asthetic quality, tactile sensation, road feedback, noise/vibration/harshness, steering feel, seat comfort, switch gear, panel alignment, how the doors feel when you open and close them, etc.

If all you care about is how often something breaks down then I could see why you don't differeniate between a *nice* interior and a cheap interior, or firm sporty suspension and your living room couch.

Even depsite those recalls and problems you mentioned, I would STILL gladly buy a Honda Accord over ANYTHING in the GM stable in those production years you mentioned.

I would pick unreliable class/style over reliable junk any day.


Case in point. My next new car purchase will most likely be a BMW. I'm going in knowing their "reliability" is questionable.... It will be worth it.

There's nothing in the interior of a Cadillac CTS or STS, or a Lincoln MKS that is second to anything from BMW, M-B, Lexus, Infiniti, or Acura.

[Inzane]

Originally Posted by Len_A

There's nothing in the interior of a Cadillac CTS or STS, or a Lincoln MKS that is second to anything from BMW, M-B, Lexus, Infiniti, or Acura.

There you go cherry picking a particular model or two to suit your position. I already acknowledged that GM has made some "recent" improvements.

Try comparing a Pontiac Grand Prix (say an '04-05 model) to an Altima, Accord, Camry, TSX, Passat etc. of similar vintage. No contest.

Try comparing a J-body (now there's GM at it's finest) to a Protege, Sentra, Corolla or Civic of similar vintage. Again, no contest.

I could play this game all day long with you. We won't settle anything.

[Len_A]

Originally Posted by Inzane

There you go cherry picking a particular model or two to suit your position. I already acknowledged that GM has made some "recent" improvements.

Try comparing a Pontiac Grand Prix (say an '04-05 model) to an Altima, Accord, Camry, TSX, Passat etc. of similar vintage. No contest.

Try comparing a J-body (now there's GM at it's finest) to a Protege, Sentra, Corolla or Civic of similar vintage. Again, no contest.

I could play this game all day long with you. We won't settle anything.

THere you go again dwelling on the past. Gran Prix is gone - replaced by the G8 which is an Australian import. On that, I agree - interior sucks. I find Ford's interiors far more comfortable. J Body - I had to look that one up - that's been gone for three years now. Who cares any more.

I'm cherry picking? Who the said anything about cherry picking? You said you're next car is probably a BMW. I gave you my opinion - there's nothing in the interior of a Cadillac CTS or STS, or a Lincoln MKS that is second to anything from BMW, M-B, Lexus, Infiniti, or Acura. As of March or April, add the Lincoln MKZ to that list, and the MKT crossover as of next July.

Nothing is going to get settle because of the prejudice and obstinate you display.