Should the government bail-out include domestic automakers?

[Mr. Clean]

[quote=Len_A;1204429]Telling me the domestic auto companies should disappear is antagonistic. ....[/QUOTE

Originally Posted by Mr. Clean

...I'm in now way wanting the U.S. auto manufacturing industry to completely disappear, but I think we are all beginning to see that it can't continue in its current bloated form.

Go figure when and how I made the statement you claim. One thing is certain, you won't drag me down to your level.

[Len_A]

Originally Posted by Mr. Clean

Go figure when and how I made the statement you claim. One thing is certain, you won't drag me down to your level.

I think you type "now", when you meant to type "no", and I read the "now way wanting the U.S. auto..." and took it to mean that you WERE in favor of the domestic automakers disappearing.

I think we both got hot under the collar, and for my part, I apologize for interpreting your typo.

Edited, because now I did a typo.....

[Lincoln_MKS]

Originally Posted by Mr. Clean

LenA, to be blunt I've grown weary of your little name calling here and on at least on other forum. I've read ad nauseum posts by you about how "special" you are, and how we "keyboard jockeys" have no business even having an opinion on the matter. Yes you are right and we are wrong. Gee what were we thinking that with our taxpayer money that we should require some accountability. Your posts grow more antagonistic to those of us who disagree. For as you said

I've read this whole thread, and you, sir, have been rude and condescending. My God, man! How much worse can you treat another human being? Len's posted that he's been out of work for over a year, and he's a degreed, experienced professional! On top of that, a page or two back, he posts that his wife's paralegal job (another degreed professional) was axed, as a direct result of the Big Three's financial problems, and what do you focus on? You focus on Len's exasperation over people expressing ideas that won't work. Even Bush is now supporting the idea of getting some loan money to the Big Three. Not a word of sympathy over his wife's job loss. His bad situation got worse, and you say nothing. Way to go, man, way to go.

I've seen Len_A post from a position of deep experience within the industry, MotorCity's posts essentially backing him up, also from industry experience, and you respond with contempt. You don't like being referred to as a "keyboard jockey". I get that. Then how about answering a straight question Len asked with a straight answer.

How much money did Texas throw at Toyota, in order to entice Toyota to locate an a truck plant in San Antonio? How much was federal tax dollars? We all pay federal income taxes (presumably we all do) - those men and women in the Detroit based industry - Len asked a valid question. How much of their federal tax dollars were used to subsidize competition to GM and Ford and Chrysler?

Or is that use of public money A-OK 'cause the plant is in your state, and Detroit cars supposedly suck? (because all the "experts" posting on detailing web sites are so-o-o unbiased, and know what's really a great car)

The lack of humanity, regarding the potential loss of so many jobs, and the contemptuous attitudes shown all the people connected to the domestic auto industry, is unbelievable. Our grandparents and great grandparents generations would be ashamed of those posts.

[Lincoln_MKS]

Originally Posted by Len_A

I think you type "now", when you meant to type "no", and I read the "now way wanting the U.S. auto..." and took it to mean that you WERE in favor of the domestic automakers disappearing.

I think we both got hot under the collar, and for my part, I apologize for interpreting your typo.

Edited, because now I did a typo.....

You know what - you've been conciliatory enough. Keep fighting the good fight. Best of luck to you. I am certain that you will come out of this situation with few bumps & bruises. Don't kiss any critics posterior.

[BigAl3]

just saw this on CNN today...

November: most jobs lost in 34 years at 1.9 million jobs

i have a feeling after december (holiday season), even more jobs will be lost. it seems that things will get worse before they get better...

[Holden_C04]

BBC NEWS | Business | Jeremy Clarkson on car sales decline

[Len_A]

Originally Posted by BigAl3

just saw this on CNN today...

November: most jobs lost in 34 years at 1.9 million jobs

i have a feeling after december (holiday season), even more jobs will be lost. it seems that things will get worse before they get better...

It really does look like it's going to get a lot worse. I've never seen things this scary.

[Len_A]

Originally Posted by Lincoln_MKS

You know what - you've been conciliatory enough. Keep fighting the good fight. Best of luck to you. I am certain that you will come out of this situation with few bumps & bruises. Don't kiss any critics posterior.

I'm way past @ss kissing, brother. The potential fallout from the failure of even one of the Big Three is so huge, I don't know why there's an argument regarding it.

[BigAl3]

Originally Posted by Len_A

It really does look like it's going to get a lot worse. I've never seen things this scary.

yeah, it's both scary and sad...

[Awsomeshine]

Originally Posted by Len_A

It really does look like it's going to get a lot worse. I've never seen things this scary.

Len

Been reading your posts and I am in the same boat as you over in the UK. I am a builder and have had no work now for 4 months, just coming to the end of our savings.

I did however used to waterproof cellars (basements) with a tanking paste that the home owner can do. I'll google this for you and see if it is something you can do.

Steve

[Len_A]

Originally Posted by Mr. Clean

LenA, to be blunt I've grown weary of your little name calling here and on at least on other forum. I've read ad nauseum posts by you about how "special" you are, and how we "keyboard jockeys" have no business even having an opinion on the matter. Yes you are right and we are wrong. Gee what were we thinking that with our taxpayer money that we should require some accountability. Your posts grow more antagonistic to those of us who disagree. For as you said

Never said I was "special". Did say I know the auto industry real well, having grown up in it and spent over twenty-five years in it, both as an MRO vendor and an OEM vendor. Absolutely I said that, with a few exceptions, I know it better than any of the people posting and bad mouthing the Detroit automakers. No apologies for that - don't believe any are due. I'm supposed to let people say any inaccurate things they want, repeat them as if they were gospel, when my experience, not my opinion, but my experience says they're wrong? No way. Not a chance in hell, especially when you post back at me:

I don't mean to pick on you LenA, as I know from reading elsewhere, you have a personal stake in this situation. But, this statement is more than a bit melodramatic and a check that you can't cash.

Then when I post an article taken right from yesterday's Senate testimony from the CEO of the country's third largest auto parts maker, reiterating exactly what I said - one Big Three bankruptcy will have ramifications so far reaching, it would negatively affect every auto assembly plant in North America, transplants included, and you get sarcastic with me, over how "unbiased" the source isn't? And I'm antagonistic? Melodramatic? From what area of expertise does this opinion come from?

And I think you meant to type "on at least one other forum", which would be DetailersClub.com. Not apologizing for it. Until this past Monday, my wife worked for Miller Canfield - the biggest law firm in Michigan. Her practice group was all automotive, specifically Chrysler, the smallest of the three Detroit automakers. In the last five or six months, not one attorney she worked with said a bankruptcy, prepackaged or otherwise, was workable. Not one. In fact, they said the opposite - too many vendors, too complicated, and will kill off some vendors. Won't work - will likely result in liquidation because of sales lost because of customers scared off by a bankruptcy. Research from CNW research of Oregon bears that out as well.

Whether it's here, or any other forum, if I see posts that are antagonistic toward the companies that my part of the country has no choice, but to depend on, I'm going to be unapologetically defensive. Like a wounded animal, backed up against a wall.

Gee what were we thinking that with our taxpayer money that we should require some accountability.

I want some accountability too - I want to know why it's OK to take a portion of my federal taxes, since 1982, send them to other states for "economic development", "federal highway improvement programs", "railroad improvements", and then use that money to subsidize my competition? Do I get to have an answer for that, or as long as some portion of the market have something against the Detroit automakers, because of missteps made years ago, it's OK to spend taxpayers money to subsidize the factories of profitable, foreign companies? Companies, by the way, who have cherry picked the market, and only pursued the more profitable retail customer, and shunned not only the daily rental fleet business, which is understandable, but have not made any effort to pursue the law enforcement, municipal, or much of the commercial market. No, just leave that market to the Big Three, and increase the impression that they're only good for fleet business. After all, from a marketing perspective, how aspirational are police cars?

[Len_A]

Originally Posted by Awsomeshine

Len

Been reading your posts and I am in the same boat as you over in the UK. I am a builder and have had no work now for 4 months, just coming to the end of our savings.

I did however used to waterproof cellars (basements) with a tanking paste that the home owner can do. I'll google this for you and see if it is something you can do.

Steve

Steve, man, that would be too cool. PM me, or post it here - that sounds like one heck of a great solution to my problem. If, as you said, it's something a do-it-yourselfer can do.