Should the government bail-out include domestic automakers?

[Setec Astronomy]

Originally Posted by David Fermani

DETROIT -- General Motors Corp. Chairman and CEO Rick Wagoner's compensation package for last year is valued at $15.7 million.

That's 64 percent more than 2006 when the package was worth $9.57 million.

GM spokeswoman Julie Gibson says much of the increase is stock incentive awards that are based on future performance.

Wagoner earned $1.56 million in salary and no bonus last year, but he received $1.8 million in incentive awards and stock options valued at $11.7 million.

GM lost a record $38.7 billion in 2007, largely due to a charge for unused tax credits. Without the charges and other one-time items, the company lost $23 million.

See? That just proves that GM is entitled to a bailout just like Wall St.

[MotorCity]

Regardless if you feel that they should receive some of the money on a moral basis the facts are that if they go under the ripple effects will devastate this country

[Setec Astronomy]

Originally Posted by lawrencea

You cant let a company that employs so many people go under. People must be kept working.

Originally Posted by bwalker25

If I employed 3 million people...

You know, the car companies don't really employ a huge number of people anymore. Between their market share being way down, and them selling/spinning off so many of their captive divisions and outsourcing that work, they're really not that big. It's been a long time since GM was at the top of the Fortune 500. According to something I just looked up, GM last year had 284,000 employees (and I think that's a global number), less than Ford.

PS According to that same source, Wal-Mart has 2.1 million employees.

[gmblack3a]

Originally Posted by Setec Astronomy

I suspect you are right on the MPG, but that's comparing a '74 to now. A current car-based large wagon, say, based on something like the Buick Lacrosse, would weigh about 3800 lbs, and get 16/24 MPG even with a 300HP V-8, which is tons more scratch than my mother's last Buick wagon circa 1978 which was pumping out about 160HP, although I think it was a few hundred pounds lighter. I'd list the exact numbers but I cleaned out my old factory manuals a few years ago. With the 200HP V-6, the Lacrosse gets 17/28.

It would be nice if they could make it "pimp" enough, I might even drive one.

[askjeffro]

Originally Posted by Setec Astronomy

PS According to that same source, Wal-Mart has 2.1 million employees.

I don't agree with opinion that just because they employ a lot of people they should be saved, however I wanted to point out that the jobs at GM are generally going to afford a much higher standard of living then a job at Walmart.

That is to say, there is something to be said for maintaining engineering competency and manufacturing expertise in one's country.

[Setec Astronomy]

Originally Posted by gmblack3a

It would be nice if they could make it "pimp" enough, I might even drive one.

Then check out the upcoming 2010 Cadillac CTS Wagon....due spring 2009...if GM lasts that long...

[MikeWinLDS]

Seeing all the past plant closures and outsourcing just to make a buck at the expense of American lives, no, I hope those greedy pigs go down.

[Setec Astronomy]

Originally Posted by askjeffro

I don't agree with opinion that just because they employ a lot of people they should be saved, however I wanted to point out that the jobs at GM are generally going to afford a much higher standard of living then a job at Walmart.

That is to say, there is something to be said for maintaining engineering competency and manufacturing expertise in one's country.

You're preaching to the choir. I like my Home Depot/electric heater story. There's a factory making electric heaters, say in Ohio. Say it's a well known name, like GE or Honeywell. The people there make a decent middle-class living. So the management team decides it's better for the shareholders (and their bonus) if they close the plant and license their name to someone else to put on a heater. So they do that, and the workers get laid off, the plant gets torn down, and they build a Home Depot (or a Lowes, or a Walmart, or a Target, etc.). So now the middle-class factory worker who had a full time job with health benefits has to take a job at Home Depot part time making half the hourly wage he used to with no benefits...and what is his job? Stocking the shelves with badge-engineered electric heaters made in China.

That story is embellished a little, but is based upon my own experience buying an electric heater at Home Depot, and the sorry state of manufacturing here in NJ.

We used to have big long threads about this a few years ago.

[Setec Astronomy]

Originally Posted by MikeWinLDS

Seeing all the past plant closures and outsourcing just to make a buck at the expense of American lives, no, I hope those greedy pigs go down.

How about we try and change the corporate culture here so the workers don't have to go down with the greedy pigs? How about we all lean out the window and yell "I'm fed up and I'm not going to take it anymore!"...

[gmblack3a]

Originally Posted by Setec Astronomy

Then check out the upcoming 2010 Cadillac CTS Wagon....due spring 2009...if GM lasts that long...

Oh please make a V version.

[Setec Astronomy]

From what I can find, it seems that GM's employment is down to about 66,000(39,000 hourly and 27,000 salary). I presume that's just in the US.

[longdx]

I am truly conflicted by the proposed bailout. For one, I beleive in a free market economy and "bailouts" by nature unduly affect the due course of unprofitable/mismanaged companies. It essentially rewards failure, while profitable companies are not given any other incentive than their own ingeniuty.

The collapse of the mighty GM/Chrysler/Ford is ironic in that the companies are actually collectively producing better quality cars. (even using Consumer Reports reliability ratings, American vehicles have improved greatly that the least reliable vehicle in their rating system is substantianly better than similiar vehicles five years ago). The UAW has agreed to a landmark agreement to absorb the healthcare costs of its retirees. (it is estimated that future UAW plants ( 3 to 5 year timeframe) will have a comparable cost structure as the Non union Toyota plants.

While there is legitimate blame to go around for all the follies of the Big 3, one must remember the importance of the auto industry to the US (and Canadian) economies. A collapse would not only affect auto employees, but countless suppliers, towns in immediate veicinites, ancillary businesses, and another loss of capital goods production in the NA continent.