Should the government bail-out include domestic automakers?

[Lumadar]

Originally Posted by artm3

isn't that socialism?
using public money to prop up poorly run companies whose executives have reaped profit even though they lost money?
doesn't this entitle the government a stake in the company?
then it becomes partially 'state' owned?

25% of the country already works for the government...now the private companies will be govenment funded to stay in business? it's madness...

we need to stop wasting money and prolonging the inevitable...
these companies are doomed to fail...
their time has passed...
let them fail and be reformed in a more sustainable fashion...
it's the American way...
don't waste the $$$$
they have been living off of our money (stock losses, ie, 401's, IRA's, etc.) for the last 10 years...
now, since we won't buy their junk we must support them with taxes?
and for nothing in return?
it's downright un-american

No, they are asking for a loan. They are not selling or giving a stake in the company to the government.

America is known around the world as the country that helps out to those in need, but when our own need help it somehow is different. Interesting.

To me, it would seem "un-American" to not help the automakers out and simultaneously make a decision that would boost the economy as a whole.

Many reports find that if the big 3 went under in year one ALONE it would cost the US economy over $150,000,000,000. Seems like simple math to me, 25,000,000,000 < 150,000,000,000+.

Also, you say "since we won't buy their junk," but I must wonder what makes something qualify as junk when Ford has been tied with Toyota and Honda for #1 in quality for about 3 years now, at times even having MORE segment leading vehicles than anyone else.

Also, Ford has more 5 star crash tested/rated vehicles than ANYONE else. (Which would lead me to believe they were fairly well designed and put together, no?)

By 2010 Ford will have a 40% refreshed lineup consisting largely of already proven European models. These vehicles (mark my words) will lead their respective segments in design, quality, reliability, safety, and value.

I know that the knee-jerk reaction in a situation like this is to say "tough luck, too bad, so sad." Trust me, I get that. I'm a huge fan of capitalism and I understand that rescuing these companies in a time like this seems to go against the capitalistic/darwinian view. However, it's just not that simple. If you look at the BIG picture you will see that it is in the best interest of the same tax payers that would be providing the loan TO provide the loan.

This has been done before and it actually MADE money for the government (Chrysler in the past).

Naturally, we're all of course entitled to our opinions. So let's keep this topic friendly, and more of a topic about "finding the best solution" rather than a "I'm right, you're wrong" type conflict.

I just want what's best for the country as a whole.

[JuneBug]

Hey, the government is the answer for every problem you have. Didn't you know that? Well, time to get with it friend, cause we're all going socialist just as soon as possible. See, it takes something called personal responsiblity, and the belief that we're a great nation because of the people not the government and those are two things not even considered these days. Read a little history, did the feds bail out San Francisco after the earthquake that leveled the place back 100 years ago? Hell no, or Chicago after the fire - nope. See back then, we weren't a nation in want of assisted living. Ya'll may think ol JB is going to get political - but I'm not, we're in the mess we're in because of too much government - from both parties. Don't ya'll get it? Just like the labor unions got those great pension plans and perks - worked good till the cash cow starved didn't it - so too will Social Security end up sucking wind if something isn't done. When you have a government that stays in power by buying the votes of the dumb masses at the expense of business and free enterprise - you're doomed to end up like other socialist countries that consider our poverty level as their middle class.

Len - I feel for you, if I lost my job, I'd be pretty pissed off, but I would go out and get something even if it was at Wal Mart or changing oil at the Jiffy Lube. But that's just me, I got it from my Dad, he retired from the Traveler's, then worked 6 days a week at a local hardware store for a few years then worked 4-5 days a week at a liquor store before finally calling it quits at the tender age of 75.

The automakers don't need a bail-out or a loan, they and other corporations need to have government off their backs and out of their business. I wish somebody could show me just where in the US Constitution - the government has the right to tell you how to run your business. Ya'll we need to realize this even though we're heading up sh!t creek with no paddles.

[Len_A]

Originally Posted by Lumadar

No, they are asking for a loan. They are not selling or giving a stake in the company to the government.

America is known around the world as the country that helps out to those in need, but when our own need help it somehow is different. Interesting.

To me, it would seem "un-American" to not help the automakers out and simultaneously make a decision that would boost the economy as a whole.

Many reports find that if the big 3 went under in year one ALONE it would cost the US economy over $150,000,000,000. Seems like simple math to me, 25,000,000,000 < 150,000,000,000+.

Also, you say "since we won't buy their junk," but I must wonder what makes something qualify as junk when Ford has been tied with Toyota and Honda for #1 in quality for about 3 years now, at times even having MORE segment leading vehicles than anyone else.

Also, Ford has more 5 star crash tested/rated vehicles than ANYONE else. (Which would lead me to believe they were fairly well designed and put together, no?)

By 2010 Ford will have a 40% refreshed lineup consisting largely of already proven European models. These vehicles (mark my words) will lead their respective segments in design, quality, reliability, safety, and value.

I know that the knee-jerk reaction in a situation like this is to say "tough luck, too bad, so sad." Trust me, I get that. I'm a huge fan of capitalism and I understand that rescuing these companies in a time like this seems to go against the capitalistic/darwinian view. However, it's just not that simple. If you look at the BIG picture you will see that it is in the best interest of the same tax payers that would be providing the loan TO provide the loan.

This has been done before and it actually MADE money for the government (Chrysler in the past).

Naturally, we're all of course entitled to our opinions. So let's keep this topic friendly, and more of a topic about "finding the best solution" rather than a "I'm right, you're wrong" type conflict.

I just want what's best for the country as a whole.

Well said. Very well said.

[BigAl3]

i can see both sides of this argument. if a company/companies is/are not doing well because it's product is not selling or people are not interested in it should we help them? not only are the Big3 at stake here but every little manufacture that supplies them with the fabric, nuts/bolts, screws, etc, etc, will be at stake here as well. if we bail them out and it helps boost the economy, then i think it would be a good idea. but what if they fall in this slump/situation again?

[Len_A]

Originally Posted by JuneBug

Hey, the government is the answer for every problem you have. Didn't you know that? Well, time to get with it friend, cause we're all going socialist just as soon as possible. See, it takes something called personal responsiblity, and the belief that we're a great nation because of the people not the government and those are two things not even considered these days. Read a little history, did the feds bail out San Francisco after the earthquake that leveled the place back 100 years ago? Hell no, or Chicago after the fire - nope. See back then, we weren't a nation in want of assisted living. Ya'll may think ol JB is going to get political - but I'm not, we're in the mess we're in because of too much government - from both parties. Don't ya'll get it? Just like the labor unions got those great pension plans and perks - worked good till the cash cow starved didn't it - so too will Social Security end up sucking wind if something isn't done. When you have a government that stays in power by buying the votes of the dumb masses at the expense of business and free enterprise - you're doomed to end up like other socialist countries that consider our poverty level as their middle class.

Len - I feel for you, if I lost my job, I'd be pretty pissed off, but I would go out and get something even if it was at Wal Mart or changing oil at the Jiffy Lube. But that's just me, I got it from my Dad, he retired from the Traveler's, then worked 6 days a week at a local hardware store for a few years then worked 4-5 days a week at a liquor store before finally calling it quits at the tender age of 75.

The automakers don't need a bail-out or a loan, they and other corporations need to have government off their backs and out of their business. I wish somebody could show me just where in the US Constitution - the government has the right to tell you how to run your business. Ya'll we need to realize this even though we're heading up sh!t creek with no paddles.

I spent two hours at the closest shopping mall to my home, just to apply for Christmas shopping help. Macy's, Penney's Sears, Radio Shack. Zip calls. Nada. And I was in line filling out applications with an experienced, degreed chemical engineer.

I'm going to try and avoid both anger and sarcasm, but it gets a bit hard when people assume that because you didn't find something, that you aren't considering everything. It's a real bad assumption. I've tried EVERYTHING. Managers at three Home Depots, whom I've applied at least five times with, told me that locally in the Detroit area, they're getting 700 applications for every opening. Lowe's told me 500. Those numbers are exactly what the stores told me. And the Detroit Free Press and The Detroit News. That's how high unemployment is in Michigan - over 9% according to the U.S. Department of Labor. 9.3% to be exact. That's almost one of every ten people. Do you read that?

My consulting I've done on the side completely dried up. Graphic Design/Desktop Publishing/Web Site development - history. Detailing - lost those customers to. About 120 houses in my subdivision - all custom built, no spec homes, from 1996 to 1998, $190,000 to $215,000 range. Six foreclosed on in the last ten months, and the homeowners association just raised our annual dues. My $212,500 brick ranch, moved in ten years ago with a 20% down, 30 year fixed rate mortgage - worth today, because of the foreclosed homes, $165,000.

So please, don't tell me about taking a job at Wal Mart or Jiffy Lube. There aren't any, and when they see my twenty-five year professional background, they tell me "no way, 'cause you'll leave if something better comes along." And now my wife's paralegal job is threatened.

[dave40co]

Originally Posted by Yal

The silence from the White House is deafening.
He does realize he's still President until next year right?

Your next President is also silent on this.

ABQjournal News: The Associated Press

Yes, lets blame this on Bush, just like global warming and hurricanes and any thing else you morons can say he did. The economy goes up and down in cycles. You can't throw good money at a bad economy. Let the fail safe things that are in place handle the economy. Bankruptcy is not a good thing but it has worked for many companies.

Just a thought, is the change we need, that Obama wanted, include hiring all of the Clinton people to head up his administration? I guess the messiah that walked on water really doesn't have any new ideas. I can't wait for my free health care!

The typical Obama voter.

How Obama Got Elected

The liberal news media elected him and I think he is going to to ask the same question Robert Redford said in the movie "The Candidate." "What do we do now?"

[III]

Newsmax.com – Ten Reasons Why the Auto Bailout Is a Bad Idea

Auto Bailout Ignores Excessive Labor Costs

[III]

Originally Posted by dave40co

How Obama Got Elected

The liberal news media elected him.....

I'm not suprised by those poll results one bit. That poll showed what we knew all along. (the media refused to do their job) You're exactly right about the media.

[Yal]

Originally Posted by dave40co

Your next President is also silent on this.

ABQjournal News: The Associated Press

Yes, lets blame this on Bush, just like global warming and hurricanes and any thing else you morons can say he did. The economy goes up and down in cycles. You can't throw good money at a bad economy. Let the fail safe things that are in place handle the economy. Bankruptcy is not a good thing but it has worked for many companies.

Just a thought, is the change we need, that Obama wanted, include hiring all of the Clinton people to head up his administration? I guess the messiah that walked on water really doesn't have any new ideas. I can't wait for my free health care!

The typical Obama voter.

How Obama Got Elected

The liberal news media elected him and I think he is going to to ask the same question Robert Redford said in the movie "The Candidate." "What do we do now?"

Isn't Obama the president-elect? I really don't give a damn who is in the white house. But who ever is in there should say or do something. Obama has no presidential power yet so for me he is a non-factor so far. That'll probably change in January. Until then shouldn't the guy thats in there now take action? Please take you partisan Obama hating blah blah to the Obama/McCain thread. Cheers

[Bunky]

Steve Forbes called Paulsen “the worst treasury secretary we’ve had in modern times”. I wonder why..he came from Wall Street.

I wish we could move up the inauguration...there seems to be no one really home at 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue. At a time like this, lame duck is not what we need for Christmas.

[Len_A]

Originally Posted by Bunky

Steve Forbes called Paulsen “the worst treasury secretary we’ve had in modern times”. I wonder why..he came from Wall Street.

I wish we could move up the inauguration...there seems to be no one really home at 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue. At a time like this, lame duck is not what we need for Christmas.

Pretty much what THOMAS L. FRIEDMAN @ The New York Times said yesterday:

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/11/23/op...3friedman.html

[dave40co]

Originally Posted by Yal

Isn't Obama the president-elect? I really don't give a damn who is in the white house. But who ever is in there should say or do something. Obama has no presidential power yet so for me he is a non-factor so far. That'll probably change in January. Until then shouldn't the guy thats in there now take action? Please take you partisan Obama hating blah blah to the Obama/McCain thread. Cheers

He is the President-elect. But he is not in favor of a bail-out either. I was just responding to your post with this. Neither one is in favor of this and if that offends you, so be it! If it hurt your sensitivities, then I am sorry! Just trying to point out some facts my friend.