Should the government bail-out include domestic automakers?

[Len_A]

Originally Posted by Mr. Clean

LenA, you are not the first person to find yourself amongst the unemployed/underemployed. Others have found themselves "down-sized", "right-sized", "out sourced", "layed off" etc. and ad nauseum and never have I seen the amount "bail me and my company out" posts. Why do those in the auto industry seem to feel that they are entitled to their jobs moreso than others?

On another note, it sounds like Bush has moved to increase unemployment benefits by an additional 7 weeks and top of the existing 13 week extension.

And for your information, since 2000, the number of direct auto company and tier one and tier two supplier jobs lost already numbers in the hundreds of thousands, with the growth in jobs by the transplants significantly less - under 50,000 since 2000., for a net loss of jobs. That doesn't include the service industry losses from people who have lost jobs and businesses as these companies have closed nearby plants. Name another industry that had downsized that many people.

[Len_A]

Originally Posted by SamIam

Len,

I agree regarding Congress and their junkets. Beyond the pale.

I find it hard to believe that there wasn't an investor led revolution to dump these guys. Waggoner has been a failure since given the job. Nardelli never should have gotten the job, who the heck did he suck up to, and I guess i know little about Mulalley, other than he and Billy haven't been able to do much for Ford, other than watch them fail. How can these guys come into a meeting and not SELL their plan. Face it, if these guys came up to you on the street and asked for a buck for a cup of joe, you'd probably tell them no. I just don't see that they GET IT.

I have a father in law who founded a multi billion dollar public company. He is now CEO and COB. He cancelled his vacation to Hawaii, pissing off his travel companion, because he felt in this economy, he didn't want to send the wrong message to the
employees. Didn't Iacocca work for a buck during the Chrysler bailout? We all know he made a killing on stock, but he understood he needed to share the pain.



Whatever plan they may have hasn't worked up till now, and they can't sell anyone on the idea that it will ever work. I don't want to see them go out, I understand the ramifications it will have. But you can't continue to pump money into companies with such poor leadership and strategy.

I think ultimately, Romney's outline would probably be the best starting point. However, I think in the end, the Democrats owe the UAW and the deal will get done. No way Obama goes into office as millions of union workers get dumped and gets laid at the feet of the Democrat legislature.

SamIam, that's what I'm asking - how can these guys not come prepared?

And you're 100% on point about Iaccoca. 100%

I want the loans made, but I'd have no problem with booting these guys out as a condition.

Only problem with Romney's plan is that not one dealer in the country has said they casn get customers into the showroom and sell them a car if the auto company whose brand they sell files for Chapter 11. The idiocy of all the "experts" and the TV talking heads keep missing the point. Customers won't buy the brand of a company in a formal C11 reorganization. It's not about comparing Circuit City to GM. You buy a computer or a TV from Circuit City, after a short time, it's HP or Toshiba you deal with.

The real question is if Hp or Toshiba filed for Chapter 11, could Circuit City or Best Buy sell Hp or Toshiba? You'd think the "experts" and the TV talking heads would understand that.

[SamIam]

Originally Posted by Setec Astronomy

I'm not denying that these particular CEO's are bozos, but the CEO of a multi-billion dollar company SHOULD be afforded the treatment of a private jet. Whether the recent crop of CEO's has tarnished thier brand so much that they have lost the respect that they should have is another story.

CEO's who oversee the bankruptcy of their companies, and who are BEGGING for a public bailout should be afforded NO such treatment. Their ultimate job is to drive profitability. When they are losing money, their job is to cut spending, including T&E, the 2nd largest controllable expense any company has and to set an example for the worker on the floor who is going to either lose his job or give back a portion of his pay to keep his job.

Face it, if they had flown 1st class or even all went on one private jet, and shown up driving a Volt,(or hybrid Escalade), a hybrid Ford Escape, and a prototype Chrysler EV, they could have shown their understanding the depth of the problem and the solutions they are currently working on. But they didn't, did they.

Respect for corporate employees should be reserved for those who have earned it.

i see no parallel in respecting the Office of the President of the United States vs the officer of a publicly held company solely based on their position.

[Mr. Clean]

Originally Posted by Len_A

...
As to the unemployment, I read another thirteen weeks, not seven Three months. My Way News - Bush signs jobless benefits extension Every little bit helps I guess.

From your stated source:

...The legislation as approved would provide seven additional weeks of payments to people who have exhausted their benefits or will exhaust them soon. Those in states where the unemployment rate is above 6 percent would be entitled to an additional 13 weeks above the 26 weeks of regular benefits. Benefit checks average about $300 a week nationwide.
...

[wytstang]

Two) Find me another industry that, as a whole, touches as many business, and as many communities, as the auto industry, especially because of the retail side of the busines (the dealers) being in every state of the country.

That would be the glass industry that started dieing back in late 06' and really went down hill and fast when the housing market bottomed and stayed there. We have been suffering for a long time and still are. Raises gone, Prophet sharing gone, increased insurance, jobs being cut/down sized. The largest glass dist closed back in May, they closed because the employees showed up to chained doors. We are now the largest glass dist in the SE and we are on one knee. I can only assume the glass industry on the other side of the U.S is falling as fast as we are. We only deal with residential/commercial glass retailers, and that group is getting smaller and smaller. The auto industry is huge but so is the glass industry.

[SamIam]

Originally Posted by Len_A

Only problem with Romney's plan is that not one dealer in the country has said they casn get customers into the showroom and sell them a car if the auto company whose brand they sell files for Chapter 11. The idiocy of all the "experts" and the TV talking heads keep missing the point. Customers won't buy the brand of a company in a formal C11 reorganization. It's not about comparing Circuit City to GM. You buy a computer or a TV from Circuit City, after a short time, it's HP or Toshiba you deal with.

The real question is if Hp or Toshiba filed for Chapter 11, could Circuit City or Best Buy sell Hp or Toshiba? You'd think the "experts" and the TV talking heads would understand that.

Didn't Chrysler have a similar problem? I'm not saying I have the answer to that, but I listened to Romney on the radio last night, and I believe that the value of having a managed plan, with the government involvement in making sure the warranty is good, would help. But then again, that is a sticking point, for sure.

I want to see the loans made, but I want to see a reorg of the companies and their exec teams. I am sure there are good people there, but I when you are on a losing team, you've gotta make changes in the front office. Someone who has led a turnaround needs to be driving, not the guys who steered into the ditch. Even if it wasn't their fault, you've got to make the change. There is a different skill set and mentality required to make this successful. Someone with that understanding would know that he has to sell the Govt. and the public and the plan to get the funding, and then get employee buy in, cause heaven knows, you know what is going to hit the fan when they start asking for reduction in headcount and overhead costs.

I have some knowledge of the Steel industry and they faced similar challenges. Interesting comparison on how to run a company can be found by studying Nucor, and another newer company, Steel Dynamics. If you ever get a chance, read a book about a Nucor startup in Crawfordsville, IN, titled "American Steel". Great read about how American industry can compete and kick *** in a tough industry.

By the way, best of luck to you. I was unemployed for about 9 months a few years back and made a few bucks consulting here and there. It's a tough time to be looking. Best of luck to you and let's all remember our fellow citizen's in our prayers.

[dave40co]

If the auto companies want to build support for the loans then they should start issuing press releases of things they are doing to cut costs. It worked for Iaccoca.

I am against the bailout. I lived through the UAL bankruptcy as an employee. Amazingly people people still flew United. The employees lost the most. Exec's still received bonuses and golden parachutes. They still managed to find a way to get rid of many 15+ year union employees including myself. I kept my pension but at a half rate since the Gov. took it over. 20 years with the company and thats what I got.

It will be tough for many folks but they will survive as I have.

[Len_A]

Originally Posted by Mr. Clean

From your stated source:

Thanks for that - I must have gone right by that part. So much for Evelyn Wood Speed Reading diploma! Michigan is above 6%, so we're at 13 weeks extension.

[Len_A]

Originally Posted by wytstang

That would be the glass industry that started dieing back in late 06' and really went down hill and fast when the housing market bottomed and stayed there. We have been suffering for a long time and still are. Raises gone, Prophet sharing gone, increased insurance, jobs being cut/down sized. The largest glass dist closed back in May, they closed because the employees showed up to chained doors. We are now the largest glass dist in the SE and we are on one knee. I can only assume the glass industry on the other side of the U.S is falling as fast as we are. We only deal with residential/commercial glass retailers, and that group is getting smaller and smaller. The auto industry is huge but so is the glass industry.

And another part of glass industry taking a hit is the manufacturing dieing is the automotive glass production taking a hit from Detroit's problems. hat's how much these industries are intertwine. I used to call on Ford's Glass Division (in fact, one of my best friends from jr. and sr. high school was an engineer with Ford's Glass Division) plant in Dearborn. Their Nashville plant made architectural glass - my parent's home has replacement windows with Ford glass in them. I know Ford Dearborn Glass Plant was gone before Ford created Visteon, and I don't know if Nashville ever survived all the changes at Visteon.

[Len_A]

Originally Posted by dave40co

If the auto companies want to build support for the loans then they should start issuing press releases of things they are doing to cut costs. It worked for Iaccoca.

I am against the bailout. I lived through the UAL bankruptcy as an employee. Amazingly people people still flew United. The employees lost the most. Exec's still received bonuses and golden parachutes. They still managed to find a way to get rid of many 15+ year union employees including myself. I kept my pension but at a half rate since the Gov. took it over. 20 years with the company and thats what I got.

It will be tough for many folks but they will survive as I have.

My cousin works for NWA here in Detroit, and I appreciate where you're coming from.

That said, flying an airline is not the same as buying a car. You buy a ticket for a flight, take the flight, and when it's over, your stake, as a customer, in that transaction is over.

You buy a car, your stake as a customer continues as long as you own it. You have warranty concerns - the deal provides the warranty service, but the auto maker pays for that warranty service. You have concerns about spare parts under warranty. While it's under warranty, you have to be concerned about OEM sheet metal for collision repairs. After warranty, availability of OEM parts will affect resale value.

I'm sorry, but it's not the same thing. And any further drop in customers threatens viability even more.

And you're 100% right - all the airline employees took it on the chin, and the execs still got their seven and eight figure pay. You're 100% right. And you may not have heard about it in Oceanside, but the UAW denounced the airline execs, and the bankruptcy's effects on you guys, big time. For all the good it did, and for what it's worth.

On the subject of press releases, they a;ready do them, with the results of where their restructuring plans are at the time of the release. So it's nothing they can't give the government.

[Yal]

The silence from the White House is deafening.
He does realize he's still President until next year right?

[Len_A]

Originally Posted by Yal

The silence from the White House is deafening.
He does realize he's still President until next year right?

Good point. I think he's passing the buck.