Should the government bail-out include domestic automakers?

[G35stilez]

No.

General Motors Death Watch 212: An Open Letter to President-Elect Barack Obama | The Truth About Cars

[salty]

Just a quick thought, i haven't down any number crunching or such, but maybe the US Feds should add their own discount on cars for the big 3. Instead of giving them money, have a one year Fed sponsored discount on cars. Everyone might be able to afford a new car or a fresh trade in. Keeping everyone employed including financing companies and the new car would need service down the road so it wouldn't be a one time thing.






Off the OP's topic but, the cities of Philadelphia, Phoenix and Atlanta have joined the bailout barrage. They want money because less mortgages means less taxes.

[billium]

Originally Posted by Len_A

Your Dakota experience is unfortunate, but repair technician's conclusion have no validity for one very big reason - you bought it used. What did the prior owner put it through and what repairs were done before you got it?

Len, re-read my post. The Dakota was a NEW leftover (unsold previous year model). I believe it had less than 5 miles on the odometer when I picked it up and it came with the full factory warranty.

But you're correct with your "unfortunate" comment. "Unfortunate" for me to have the same experience with the Dakota that I had years earlier with Detroit's offerings. Not just the quality of product issues, but the same cavalier response from a dealership to my problems. "Unfortunate" for GM, Ford and Chrysler that I don't believe in "third" chances, regardless how cheaply they offer their product or what rebates/incentives are offered. "Unfortunate" for these same three manufacturers that both of our kids are in the market for new cars in the next 6 months. Neither are considering any Detroit products.

I don't dispute your arguments as to whether a GM bankruptcy will have a big local, state and federal economic impact (although I disagree as to the extent of the impact at the national level), but again, I see any federal loans/bailout/leg up as simply delaying the inevitable. No one will be sending checks to me if I run my business into the ground and I don't expect them to. My employees make informed decisions every day as to whether it's in their best interest to continue to work for me or take a job with a competitor. No one can tell me that UAW employees haven't seen the writing on the wall with GM for years. What other company can you name that has made mutilple cash offers to non-retirement eligible employees to go find another career?

And I can and I do blame management. G. Richard (Rick) Wagoner, Jr., Frederick Henderson the Board of Directors specifically. Bob Lutz to a lesser degree. These folks were paid tens of millions of dollars to make the hard decisions that are best for the organization. Every one of them, to a person, should look up the definition of fiduciary responsibility. I'm sick of seeing no accountability from these big corporate CEO's, CFO's, COO's and their Board or Directors.

[Len_A]

Originally Posted by billium

Len, re-read my post. The Dakota was a NEW leftover (unsold previous year model). I believe it had less than 5 miles on the odometer when I picked it up and it came with the full factory warranty.

I stand corrected. Sorry to hear that. I've owned nothing but Ford's, except for one company car a few years ago from GM. We routinely put over 120,000 on our cars before I trade them in. Some have had some problems, but recent model years go by, problems

Originally Posted by billium

But you're correct with your "unfortunate" comment. "Unfortunate" for me to have the same experience with the Dakota that I had years earlier with Detroit's offerings. Not just the quality of product issues, but the same cavalier response from a dealership to my problems. "Unfortunate" for GM, Ford and Chrysler that I don't believe in "third" chances, regardless how cheaply they offer their product or what rebates/incentives are offered. "Unfortunate" for these same three manufacturers that both of our kids are in the market for new cars in the next 6 months. Neither are considering any Detroit products.

Dealers are independent business people, and caviler attitudes toward customers aren't only the the purview of the Detroit 3 dealers, and bigoted as hell to imply or say that. As any Toyota owner who had engine problems due to oil sludge (something that affected models from Corolla to Lexus LS), and the caviler way dealers blew them off with charges of owner abuse, even when owners had receipt records of oil changes. Lot's of other problems that non-Detroit dealers have had with their customers too, and it doesn't more than two or three minutes with Yahoo or Google to find them. Toyota Engine Problems Link and Brake Problems Link Here and Highlander problems here

Honda transmission problems here and more tranny problems here and transmission failure here

Nissan Problems here and more Nissan Problems here and Nissan Titan Frame Problems Here

That took all of five minutes. All auto makers have problems. My wife is a paralegal who on processing discovery requests for one Detroit auto maker's law suits. She has access to NHTSA's information on recalls. Guess what - all automakers have investigations going against them. All auto maker dealers have problem children who mistreat customers. Your bad problems and everyone else on this board who have complaints are your experiences, but proof of an absolute fact.

Originally Posted by billium

I don't dispute your arguments as to whether a GM bankruptcy will have a big local, state and federal economic impact (although I disagree as to the extent of the impact at the national level), but again, I see any federal loans/bailout/leg up as simply delaying the inevitable. No one will be sending checks to me if I run my business into the ground and I don't expect them to. My employees make informed decisions every day as to whether it's in their best interest to continue to work for me or take a job with a competitor. No one can tell me that UAW employees haven't seen the writing on the wall with GM for years. What other company can you name that has made mutilple cash offers to non-retirement eligible employees to go find another career?

Mercedes in Alabama is offering $100,000 buyouts to their employees (link here) and Nissan in Tennessee is offering $100,000 buyouts as well (link here ) - not multiple yet, but it's starting none-the-less.
Apparently the bad auto industry news that sinks in with people is when it's from Detroit. I have twenty-five years experience, a bachelors degree, plus extra skills in web site development and some basic IT work (basic network) - I've been unemployed for fourteen and a half months, and counting, and now the prospect of a Chrysler Chapter 11 filing or Cerberus selling off parts of Chrysler piecemeal threatens my wife's job. Our home that we paid $212,500 for ten years ago this past summer, won't go for $165,000 today. We didn't over buy - our employment position was decidedly better ten years ago, and we went the traditional 20% down, 30 year mortgage route. Selling today would mean wiping out all our equity, and my unemployment is burning through our savings. That's the human cost of this situation, and the condescension I see, from politicians, regarding what amounts to a loan to the Detroit is rapidly getting on my nerves.

Consumer Reports has had high marks for Ford products, putting them nipping at Toyota's heels on quality. Takes time for reality to sink in with the market place.

Originally Posted by billium

And I can and I do blame management. G. Richard (Rick) Wagoner, Jr., Frederick Henderson the Board of Directors specifically. Bob Lutz to a lesser degree. These folks were paid tens of millions of dollars to make the hard decisions that are best for the organization. Every one of them, to a person, should look up the definition of fiduciary responsibility. I'm sick of seeing no accountability from these big corporate CEO's, CFO's, COO's and their Board or Directors.

So punish them, not the employees, suppliers and everyone that is dependent on these companies for a living. I agree - management screwed up - does that mean my risk of losing my house should go up?

[Len_A]

Originally Posted by G35stilez

No.

General Motors Death Watch 212: An Open Letter to President-Elect Barack Obama | The Truth About Cars

That's really funny. Not one of those people live in my subdivision, which besides active hourly and salaried Detroit 3 employees, includes several people working for suppliers
including tooling suppliers.

And if you check the , thetruthaboutcars.com FAQ's, they're aren't very open to criticism of their point-of-view.

[soccerjunky]

i've only owned one nissan .. my wife had an armada and for two years the whole suv would shake when braking despite how many times i took it to the dealer..they finally had a recall and replaced pads/rotors but it was never perfect...Also i would not trust nissan .. they lied about the performance of the gtr

i only purchase american brands now (other than an F430)

i saw a red srt8 challenger over the weekend .. that thing looked beautiful...may get one this week for my daily beater

This country has been living beyond its' means...we all need to make sacrifices but i don't have the answers..i'm to busy enjoying american cars before they go out of business

Len A my prayers are with you and u're family....

[billium]

Len:

My opinion is based on personal experience with Detroit's offerings, their delerships and those dealership's employees. I thought some of those experiences might have been because of my youth, so decided to give Detroit another shake in 2003. That experience was no better than those in my younger days. If my opinions now, based on those experinces, make me a bigot as you define the word, I'm guilty as charged.

When I was a Ford stockholder, I did vote management out. Obviously, I was in the minority.

You have much more skin in this outcome than I do, Len. I'll chalk up you getting personal to your situation. If it's worth anything, it's not that I'm not empathetic to you, your family and thousands of others in the same boat, but I have little simpathy. I see more harm than good coming from government help in this case.

[Len_A]

Originally Posted by billium

Len:

My opinion is based on personal experience with Detroit's offerings, their delerships and those dealership's employees. I thought some of those experiences might have been because of my youth, so decided to give Detroit another shake in 2003. That experience was no better than those in my younger days. If my opinions now, based on those experinces, make me a bigot as you define the word, I'm guilty as charged.

When I was a Ford stockholder, I did vote management out. Obviously, I was in the minority.

You have much more skin in this outcome than I do, Len. I'll chalk up you getting personal to your situation. If it's worth anything, it's not that I'm not empathetic to you, your family and thousands of others in the same boat, but I have little simpathy. I see more harm than good coming from government help in this case.

Then you & I voted the same way. I also regularly voted against their choice of CPA firms for the required audits. I figured someone has to vote against management's recommendations. Looks like we were in very small company on that one.

How do you not get personal when you live in a 120 home subdivision and 6 homes got foreclosed on - that's 5%. Only heaven knows what a Detroit 3 chapter 11 filing will do.

You think the economy is bad now. These loan requests get turned down and GM files Chapter 11, talk to me six weeks after that. Just six weeks.

And things are getting worse now. Motor and Equipment Manufacturers Association, the association of parts makers, is now requesting aid. Most of the members of that trade group also supply Toyota, Nissan, Honda, BMW, Hyundai, and Mercedes.

And Fitch Ratings is warning Toyota that they may strip them of their AAA credit rating, in part due to Toyota's losses here in the USA. I guess "welcome to the party" is in order.

[Inzane]

I plan to buy a new car next spring/summer, an entry level sports/luxury sedan. I will be looking at BMW (3), Audi (A4), Infiniti (G), Acura (TL... um, scratch that, it's ugly) and maybe Mercedes (C). (and if I forego the luxury aspect... the Subaru Legacy GT might be on the list too). But even that list might have to be shorter based on the abscence of manual transmissions in a lot of product lines. (side rant )

No one else is making something that I would want right now. And I can't be alone on this.

[Len_A]

6 myths about the Detroit 3

[Eliot Ness]

There is not an easy answer. Do I want to reward the CEO’s who have made millions with a bail-out? Of course not. On the other hand I can’t imagine what would happen to the U.S. if the big 3 go under; I seriously think the economy will implode. The ripple effects would devastate thousands of families and countless small companies and manufacturers.

The car industry is part of America and I can’t imagine this country without them. I sure don’t have all the answers but I don’t think we can let them fail. A bail-out will require guidelines, limitations, and change, but to just turn our backs on the American auto industry is the same as turning our backs on thousands of working Americans, and I’m not prepared to do anything like that.

[RedlineIRL]

Why not? They bailed out wall street who are the ones who put the economy in the situation that it's in. Look what AIG decided to do with some of it's money. I'm sure that GM and the other US automakers are a more wothy cause. Or they could just be ingorant, do nothing and let them fail. It'll just put hundreds of thousand of American's out of a job and put the economy in a much worse position that it already is.