RIDS and Feathersanding - A Highly Specialized Technique by Mike Phillips

[Mike Phillips]

Originally Posted by David Fermani

Nice explanation Mike, but are you taking claim to the term/process feathersanding?

Hi David,

Sorry for being what's called a long copy writer, I know a lot of people are just scanners in this YouTube world we live in. Allow me to quote myself as I chop 4 paragraphs out of my article that from reading your questions looks like you scanned over?

Originally Posted by Mike Phillips

Anyway, that's the story behind the term and practice of feathersanding, and this is the first time it's been explained in print anywhere that I'm aware off for whatever that's worth. Sometimes finding the right words to explain an idea can be challenging. It can be easy to show somebody how to do something when you're working with them in person. It can be hard to describe how to do it in Cyberspace with a keyboard.


Important Note:
I am a ardent proponent of giving due credit where credit is due. I see work and words copied and pasted all over the Internet via various forums without the proper credit given to the originating author.

I've never seen nor read of anyone explaining, sharing or teaching the Feathersanding Technique before I did the actual work in preparation for the 2002 Bimmerfest. The below pictures and article were originally posted to my own personal forum back in 2002 called ShowCarGarage because at that time Meguiar's Online didn't exist.

I'm sorry to say that the original vBulletin databases for the original ShowCarGarage.com forum no longer exist, so the oldest documentation from when this work was done is in 2004 after the MOL forum went live.

Does that set the record straight so that everyone's on the same cyber page?

[David Fermani]

Originally Posted by Mike Phillips

Anyway, that's the story behind the term and practice of feathersanding, and this is the first time it's been explained in print anywhere that I'm aware off for whatever that's worth.

I've never seen nor read of anyone explaining, sharing or teaching the Feathersanding Technique before I did the actual work in preparation for the 2002 Bimmerfest. The below pictures and article were originally posted to my own personal forum back in 2002 called ShowCarGarage because at that time Meguiar's Online didn't exist.

Originally Posted by Mike Phillips

Does that set the record straight so that everyone's on the same cyber page?

Not quite. Are you're taking credit for being the 1st one posting featherXXXX on the internet or the 1st one doing the actual process??

[Mike Phillips]

Originally Posted by bufferbarry

I'm gonna ? this practice though.

First I would not recommend using just a finger tip on any sanding.

I can appreciate that. Everyone has their own way of doing things and the freedom to write their own how-to article telling people what to do and how do it and just as important, why to do it.

Originally Posted by bufferbarry

There should always be an interface in between the paper and the pressure point. Pressure point being hand or in this case finger tip.

You make another great point. Last time I was in a PBE store all they had was the usual backing pads for half-sheets.

As for me, I always notice how online enthusiasts like to make things as complicated as possible while I like to stick with the KISS method.

KISS = Keep it Simple Simon

This isn't Rocket Science folks, the goal is simple and I think I explained it in the article so I'll leave the article to speak for itself.

Originally Posted by bufferbarry

Wouldn't the the little sanding blocks that Meguiar's be better for this?

Have you ever used one of the Nikken Sanding Blocks?

They're great tools but they are for removing defects on top of the surface, not RIDS which are below the surface.

Originally Posted by bufferbarry

Also to ensure no deep tracers should be induced. couldn't you use a rubber block eraser as your sanding block?

Great question. A lot of times, when I'm working on a car, I like to use the tools I have and any ingenuity that comes along. As I posted in the original article,

Originally Posted by Mike Phillips

No one ever showed me how to do this, I just used common sense and figured it out on my own with the idea being to only remove the paint surrounding the RIDS, not using the Bubba method of compounding and compounding the entire hood, or sanding and then compounding the entire hood.

Again, I was simply using the tools I had available and following the philosophy of,

KISS - Keep it Simple Simon

I do encourage others to find their own way, write an in-depth article about it documented with pictures and feel free to make it as simple or as complicated as you like.

Originally Posted by bufferbarry

Also when spot sanding like this. Is it ok for the paint to have this many high and low points? wouldn't this look a little strange to see spot leveled paint? Why not sand the whole panel and be done.

Well... another great question,

I knew nothing about the paint except it was original. At that time it would have been 11 years old.

I don't know how many detailers had gone before me not what they may have used on the paint. (Compounds and such). So I don't know how think the top layer of paint was and I didn't want to find out the hard way. Everything I did was risky to start with but I mentioned something about luck at the end of my article, instead of quoting myself anyone can scroll up and check it out.

I did my best to explain my process in the article above, which is what most people would agree is too long and as such people tend to not read all the text, but here's a quote from the article.

Originally Posted by Mike Phillips

No one ever showed me how to do this, I just used common sense and figured it out on my own with the idea being to only remove the paint surrounding the RIDS, not using the Bubba method of compounding and compounding the entire hood, or sanding and then compounding the entire hood.

That said, I always encourage everyone to find their own way and if you feel so inclined or even compelled, document it and post your own how-to article explaining what you did, how you did it and why you did it.

In all seriousness, I really don't mind your questions as I"m sure a lot of other people may be thinking the same questions but they don't for whatever their reasons reply to this thread and ask them.

And while your questions are great ones, my system approach worked on this car, and it worked for me, and I'm confident it will work for others if they're ever in a position where they need or want to remove RIDS like I did on this car.

Most of all, this is a public forum and everyone is not only encouraged to ask questions about a topic like this but everyone is encouraged to write their own article on this topic or any topic and document it with their process and success pictures.

So I'm completely open to suggestions to improve my process and I'm always willing t learn from others. If you have a better way then I'm sure it would make for a great article that would help others to follow in the footsteps of your success.

[Mike Phillips]

Originally Posted by David Fermani

Not quite. Are you're taking credit for being the 1st one posting featherXXXX on the internet or the 1st one doing the actual process??

Neither.

Again, if you read what I wrote, I stated,

Note the ORIGINAL words highlighted in RED

[quote=Mike Phillips;1324583]

Anyway, that's the story behind the term and practice of feathersanding, and this is the first time it's been explained in print anywhere that I'm aware of for whatever that's worth.
[/quote

What the above means David is that I've never found another example in print or pixels that explained the topic. I NEVER said it's never been explained in print or pixels, it's just I've never found another example of it.

This means what I wrote is personal to me. Now if you've found a place where feathersanding has been explained in print or in pixels that pre-dates 2002 please share it with the rest of us but again I never said it doesn't exist, I'm merely saying I've never seen it. I would love to see it however so please post a link or copy and paste or scan the text you're referring to.

Originally Posted by Mike Phillips

Important Note:
I am a ardent proponent of giving due credit where credit is due. I see work and words copied and pasted all over the Internet via various forums without the proper credit given to the originating author.

I've been posting to the Internet since 1994 that I can document, that' not as long as everyone but longer than most people I've met and I never take credit for something someone else has written and created and I always appreciate the same in return but don't always see it.

Again, I never claimed to invent Feathersanding, I just made up a name and took some pictures and wrote an article to share with others.

Originally Posted by Mike Phillips

I've never seen nor read of anyone explaining, sharing or teaching the Feathersanding Technique before I did the actual work in preparation for the 2002 Bimmerfest. The below pictures and article were originally posted to my own personal forum back in 2002 called ShowCarGarage because at that time MeguiarsOnline didn't exist. I'm sorry to say that the original vBulletin databases for the original ShowCarGarage forum no longer exist, so the oldest documentation from when this work was done is in 2004 after the MOL forum went live.

The above is all true. Can't add anything to it.

Back to your question,

Originally Posted by David Fermani

Not quite. Are you're taking credit for being the 1st one posting featherXXXX on the internet or the 1st one doing the actual process??

I'm simply saying until my article, I've never found anything written on the topic. I've never heard of anyone using the term Feathersanding to remove RIDS and I coined the acronym RIDS, so at least that part does have some validity.

And again, if you read my words carefully, I never claimed I was the first one to sand out an isolated scratch. I have not found another example of anyone documenting it. There's a huge difference between doing and doing and documenting, I did the latter, that's two things, not just one thing.

Please share with everyone your links or documentation on the topic of feathersanding and let me be the first to edit my article and give the appropriate person credit where credit is due. I'm not one to take someone else's credit, in fact I hope over the years all my friends will back me up and state that I'm the first person to give others credit.

Did I answer your question?

[Accumulator]

Mike Phillips- Heh heh, you and buffer barry are probably the two guys here who most emphasize the KISS approach to detailing, barry having often joked that he's glad he learned how to detail before coming to Autopia where everything is rocket science

I for one think it's great to have the two of you discussing (not to say debating ) some of the finer points on a subject as potentially serious as wetsanding.

Originally Posted by bufferbarry

.. I would not recomend using just a finger tip on any sanding. There should always be an interface in between the paper and the pressure point..

That's something I put in my "don't try this at home, kids!" category, but if *Mike* were to do it I wouldn't second-guess him. I'm glad you brought it up though, maybe people will give it a little extra thought and at least be more careful.

I gotta admit that I've used my fingertip upon occasion (mighty carefully!), and, heh heh...I sorta bet that you have too

Not as good as using an interface, but you know... "hey, I can get away with it this time..."

Heh heh, I still remember that you've used your lighter a few times

[Mike Phillips]

I was in our local PBE store yesterday and looked at what was available for interface pads for the human finger and they didn't have anything. Just the standard half-sheet style backing pads.

A guy could start to cut one of these up or use a piece of foam or like I did, just get busy with it.

Sanding with your fingertip is done very lightly. Your finger, well at least mine, does offer some cushion. (touch two fingers together, you'll see there's some cushion).

Water lubricates the process as does a little soap in the water.

Most of all, anyone doing anything like this should be 100% focused on the task at hand, not thinking about dinner, or Monday Night Football.

At the end of the day, my approach worked for me. Each person and each Autopian can find their own way that works for them. The BMW at the Bimmerfest was truly a dramatic before and after like most people have never seen before. I had at least 10 to 12 hours into just the driver's half of the hood and a week later, at least that much time into the other half of the hood.

It's not for the faint at heart, it's not really for someone 'new' to using a rotary buffer and wet-sanding.

And Accumulator's right,

Don't try this at home kids...

And if you do, proceed with caution, especially if it's someone else's car.

[Accumulator]

Originally Posted by Mike Phillips

I was in our local PBE store yesterday and looked at what was available for interface pads for the human finger and they didn't have anything. Just the standard half-sheet style backing pads...

I could *swear* I've seen smaller interfaces somewhere...maybe back during my model-building days

Maybe this is a product-offering opportunity for some vendor, hint hint...

Were the half-sheet ones you saw fairly thick and not-so-cut-up-able? The last ones I bought didn't lend themselves to easy resizing, so I just used an eraser; I must've had a half-dozen different erasers gathered up for that project but I was having enough issues without risking the trough-sanding type of "oops".

[David Fermani]

Originally Posted by Accumulator

I could *swear* I've seen smaller interfaces somewhere...maybe back during my model-building days

Micro-Mesh Soft Touch Pad Variety Packs [STPVP-01] - $7.91 : MICRO-SURFACE FINISHING PRODUCTS, INC

Polishing Swabs [SWB-01] - $9.09 : MICRO-SURFACE FINISHING PRODUCTS, INC

+ Micro-Surface's backing material is the softest out of any paper I've used. Drastically reduces finger marks for Mike's application especially. Alot of their paper is sold by the roll and can be cut to fit/wrap any tool implimented for sanding.

[Mike Phillips]

Originally Posted by David Fermani;1325371

Micro-Mesh Soft Touch Pad Variety Packs [STPVP-01] - $7.91 : MICRO-SURFACE FINISHING PRODUCTS, INC

Polishing Swabs [SWB-01] - $9.09 : MICRO-SURFACE FINISHING PRODUCTS, INC

+ Micro-Surface's backing material is the softest out of any paper I've used. Drastically reduces finger marks for Mike's application especially. Alot of their paper is sold by the roll and can be cut to fit/wrap any tool implimented for sanding.

Thanks, I'll get some after SEMA, these look like a good idea.





One thing I tell others and practice myself is to always be open to new ideas and new products.

Thanks Dave for sharing these handy looking little tools, I've used the Micro-Mesh products before but not these small pads. These look perfect for RIDS and you can still have a lot of control with them using your finger.

Thanks!

[bufferbarry]

Originally Posted by Accumulator

Mike Phillips- Heh heh, you and buffer barry are probably the two guys here who most emphasize the KISS approach to detailing, barry having often joked that he's glad he learned how to detail before coming to Autopia where everything is rocket science

I for one think it's great to have the two of you discussing (not to say debating ) some of the finer points on a subject as potentially serious as wetsanding.

That's something I put in my "don't try this at home, kids!" category, but if *Mike* were to do it I wouldn't second-guess him. I'm glad you brought it up though, maybe people will give it a little extra thought and at least be more careful.

I gotta admit that I've used my fingertip upon occasion (mighty carefully!), and, heh heh...I sorta bet that you have too

Not as good as using an interface, but you know... "hey, I can get away with it this time..."

Heh heh, I still remember that you've used your lighter a few times

LOL Accumulator Yes I have used a finger tip, or my entire palm a time or two. Ok maybe a lighter to. lol should have never told you that. I have such an interface arsenal its insane. I use cut up foam pads, to old claybars. lol just like Mike said. I use the tools I had at the time. LOL I can get so creative.

Now onto Mr Phillips.

Please by no means am I looking to get into an argument or anything like that. I admire your work, not just detailing , but what you have done with this business. It takes a lot to write as many articles as you have, amongst the other contributions you have made to this business. From my understanding thats alot!.I can only hope to be there someday. Hopefully someday soon. I was just simply stating how I felt with no disrespect to you. I am one who learned the old school way that you and others paved the way for. Like Accumulator has said. I am also one who uses the KISS term alot. I was always told it was keep it simple stupid. lol I kinda like your version better. When I first got started my mentor told me this is how you do it. He taught me the basics. he then said "take what I teach you and make it yours." what he meant was there are different ways of getting there its how you go about doing it is what will make you a top notch detailer. To this day I never forget that. Spending countless hours trying to find a simplier quicker way. When in reality I always go back to the basic's. You are so right when people make this to difficult. I agree. Anyway Mike Its great to meet you and I look foward to the many more articles you write!
Barry Theal

[Jakerooni]

Mike. I understand the light touch aspect. But when just using the fingertip how do you not create a "Valley" in the clear coat?

[advs1]

wow that is some old school chit right there. i remember cutting up a bicycle tire tube to use as a sanding pad back in the late 80's early 90's to "feathersand" as you put it. we just called it spot sanding and the tire tube worked pretty good as we didnt have all the "rocket science" we do now